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  1. #121
    Senior Member Addams's Avatar
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    You do know you can have a wife and kids and STILL come out as gay later in life, right?
    Let's not exaggerate, you don't suddenly discover that you are attracted by people of the same sex out of the blue, around 40.

    Like :

    -gee, don't know why but since this morning i really want to bone a dude

    -word?

    No, some people only found the courage to admit it later in life yes, but that's something they felt must probably since their teens.

  2. #122
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Addams View Post
    Let's not exaggerate, you don't suddenly discover that you are attracted by people of the same sex out of the blue, around 40.
    Like :
    - gee, don't know why but since this morning i really want to bone a dude
    -word?
    No, some people only found the courage to admit it later in life yes, but that's something they felt must probably since their teens.
    Denial is a POWERFUL tool; and people have been proven to supress many things; it's not as simple as "everyday in my head I thought: I'm gay, but not going to confess it."

    Men in their 40s, with kids, who would consider themselves happily married have come out as gay. IN REAL LIFE. Why do we not accept this can happen in comics? With a skilled writer, a good few very established characters could be outed and it seem believable.
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Time_to_Zap View Post
    Like, 99.9% of all of Marvel's characters are heterosexual. Which seems kind of unfair, given that AT LEAST 3.4% of the American population is LGBTQ, according to some of the more recent polls.

    Besides, plenty of people either are A) in the closet or B) honestly don't figure out who they are sexually until later on in life. It doesn't seem unrealistic to assume somebody in their mid-twenties, like Sam and Roberto, could've recently discovered their sexual identities.
    Oh gawd, not the "Marvel should be representative" argument. Maybe we should have a Marvel universe based on worldwide UN demographic information? That'd sure be interesting to read. I know you weren't arguing that we should limit the numbers to just 3.4% of superheroes, but I think it's the wrong defence.

    The X-Men are queer; it's in their core, people who object to it need to find a different franchise, because for all their lamentations about changing "established characters" from "straight" to gay, what they fail to understand that to assume any mutant is exclusively heterosexual is to expect a fundamental change to the established mythos. The X-Men live in a universe that explores identity politics, and so their default identity is mutable.

    Note that this is NOT me saying Cannonball and Bobby are canon gay together. As HME pointed out, literary homoeroticism and canon homosexuality are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    they should just establish all mutants as bisexual.
    Since this argument is rehashed so often, maybe spelling it out like this is the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Storm and all the X-women.
    And Wolverine.
    Last edited by MarvelGirlBoy; 11-27-2012 at 04:30 AM.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Men in their 40s, with kids, who would consider themselves happily married have come out as gay. IN REAL LIFE. Why do we not accept this can happen in comics? With a skilled writer, a good few very established characters could be outed and it seem believable.
    It can happen in real life indeed. it has been so many times. It CAN be so with comic characters as well. BUT on this board it seems some members seem to want many guys to be(come) gay.

    Comics have grown over the years and Marvel has quite some gays and lesbians in their comics, which is the way it should be.

    However it does not have to be that as soon as guys are best friends and tap one another on the shoulder or give hugs they are gay. Sunspot, Iceman, Cannonball are all straight, simple.

    And before my message gets's misunderstood. I do appreciate Marvel (and DC) have grown and introduced gays and lesbians in comics, I applaud it!

  5. #125
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    It can happen in real life indeed. it has been so many times. It CAN be so with comic characters as well. BUT on this board it seems some members seem to want many guys to be(come) gay.
    Once Marvel has outed A SINGLE major established character, we can talk about "everytimes". Until that time... I think this is a bit of a weak counter. In real life, established hetrosexual men, who were called womanisers in their time, who everyone swore they could never be gay... have come out as gay. It happens in real life... just NEVER at Marvel. Why do you think some fans are so against excepting normality in their comics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    However it does not have to be that as soon as guys are best friends and tap one another on the shoulder or give hugs they are gay. Sunspot, Iceman, Cannonball are all straight, simple.
    Which significant established character WOULD you support being outed? Because it seems this is an arguement that is used alot "I would support it, just not for [insert character]"... so which characters CAN people say should be outed; without fans resorting to "I support it, just not for [insert character]? I agree not everytime two men show friendship it means they are gay (obviously). Most of my best friends are straight men; so it easilyhappens. And truthfully NO I do not think Sunspot and Cannoball are about to be outed (thought I would FULLY support it, since Hickman's massive Avengers group is void of any LGBT characters as of right now). My only objection is the massive outcry even speculation gets; from posters who "support" LGBT characters (yet never seem to... support... them). If you get my drift.
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  6. #126
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    Hi Kieran (good Irish name, that),
    I feel compelled to reply, as my clumsily worded posts could, and have been, misinterpreted as indicative of homophobia on my part. If I gave this impression, I humbly apologise. It is not for me to judge anyone, we are all flawed human beings, and who am I to assume I am better than anyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Considering your aversion to any gay character who's first line wasn't "I'm here, I'm queer", is it that much of a surprise you refused to read it as anything but "tots straight".
    No, I would feel a gay character who opened with such a line to be a shallow and disappointing stereotype, as, no doubt, you yourself would do. In the case of Cannonball and Sunspot, both characters have been established as exclusively heterosexual within the canon. Admittedly, during the 80s, when they were created, comics were different from today (better, in many ways, but I digress), but one area in which comics were less progressive, for want of a better word, was in their treatment of sexuality. I mean, John Byrne, provided one can take anything he says at face value, has stated that he always intended for Northstar to be gay, but wasn't allowed to explicitly state this, and Chris Claremont had to sneak Mystique and Destiny's relationship past the radar by use of the obscure word 'leman'.
    I am against the over-sexualising of comic books, and this applies as much to heterosexual couplings as homosexual ones. Comics should be something written for anyone from children upwards, with maybe a few 'mature' titles (as was done in the MAX line in the past) that are either out of continuity or are 'side-trips' that add to the experience for older readers, should they wish to read them, but do not have to be read in terms of the ongoing storyline. This does not mean that the main titles should be sanitised kiddie-friendly rubbish: by all means, show scantily clad women (as has always been done), scantily clad men (ditto, since way back when the Submariner debuted), allusions to sex (we all knew Spidey and the Black Cat were at it like rabbits, without it being explicitly shown), even some fetish allusions (hello again, Chris Claremont...). There just needs to be a balance, so as not to make mainstream comics the sole preserve of an ageing fanbase. That said, I do not see a problem with same-sex couples...in today's world, many younger readers, even, will know of someone who is gay, perhaps even a family member, and I imagine that having organically developed and balanced characters who just happen to be gay would be helpful to some young comic fans who are realising things about themselves. I see all that. I just think that, say, suddenly making someone like Peter Parker or Ben Grimm gay would be the wrong way to go about this, as the characters have been established as straight. As I already stated, by all means, take a character whose orientation was never examined in great detail and run with them, maybe even someone who was shown to date a member of the opposite sex once or twice over the decades, but an out-and-out straight character should no more turn gay than someone like Wiccan should turn straight.
    I also appreciate the parallels between mutants and gay people: the mutancy being latent until puberty, the whole being different thing, the persecution...if it was not intended as a subtext, it sure works as one. Saying that that makes all mutants bisexual, however, well, I feel that that's a sweeping generalisation to make subtext text. Of course, if someone wants to imagine something not shown on the page as being canon, then they are free to do so, and, in the case of Storm, as I already said, despite any definite proof, I am prepared to admit that the Yukio subtext, at least, was fairly compelling.

  7. #127
    Viridescent Time_to_Zap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Once Marvel has outed A SINGLE major established character, we can talk about "everytimes". Until that time... I think this is a bit of a weak counter. In real life, established hetrosexual men, who were called womanisers in their time, who everyone swore they could never be gay... have come out as gay. It happens in real life... just NEVER at Marvel. Why do you think some fans are so against excepting normality in their comics?


    Which significant established character WOULD you support being outed? Because it seems this is an arguement that is used alot "I would support it, just not for [insert character]"... so which characters CAN people say should be outed; without fans resorting to "I support it, just not for [insert character]? I agree not everytime two men show friendship it means they are gay (obviously). Most of my best friends are straight men; so it easilyhappens. And truthfully NO I do not think Sunspot and Cannoball are about to be outed (thought I would FULLY support it, since Hickman's massive Avengers group is void of any LGBT characters as of right now). My only objection is the massive outcry even speculation gets; from posters who "support" LGBT characters (yet never seem to... support... them). If you get my drift.
    It would be nice for Marvel to have (and push!) a major character as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender/sexual. Much as I love them, people like Karolina Dean, Xavin, Rictor, Shatterstar, and Karma are all relatively minor in the grand scheme of Marvel. I want a BIG character, y'know?

    Because it seems like such characters have to be actively sought out. Like, "Oh, you wanna read about a gay superhero? Okay, go and read this book." Whereas it SHOULD be more like "These are the Avengers, Cannonball and Sunspot are in love, DEAL with it." (I know it's not canon, that's just an example.)

    Having LGBTQ characters only appear in less prominent titles like X-Factor, Runaways, and New Mutants just seems like the wrong way of going about it to me. They need more screentime, y'know?

    By the way, everything Kieran has been saying...I fully appreciate and agree with. ^_^
    "Before you save anyone else, you have to save yourself."
    ~Gregory Maguire

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Which significant I agree not everytime two men show friendship it means they are gay (obviously).
    And THAT was my point, thank you.

  9. #129
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Time_to_Zap View Post
    It would be nice for Marvel to have (and push!) a major character as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender/sexual. Much as I love them, people like Karolina Dean, Xavin, Rictor, Shatterstar, and Karma are all relatively minor in the grand scheme of Marvel. I want a BIG character, y'know?
    Because it seems like such characters have to be actively sought out. Like, "Oh, you wanna read about a gay superhero? Okay, go and read this book." Whereas it SHOULD be more like "These are the Avengers, Cannonball and Sunspot are in love, DEAL with it." (I know it's not canon, that's just an example.)
    Iceman and Human Torch would be THE EASIEST to out, based on circumstances in Dark Wolverine, and Emma accusing Iceman of being gay (how often is a telepath who can read thoughts wrong?). Captain America will never happen, despite his past with Bucky (and his "old guard" attitudes keeping him in the closet)

    Quote Originally Posted by Time_to_Zap View Post
    Having LGBTQ characters only appear in less prominent titles like X-Factor, Runaways, and New Mutants just seems like the wrong way of going about it to me. They need more screentime, y'know?
    The thing is, if you want to see a LGBT couple in Marvel: we have THREE options: Astonishing X-men, X-factor and (in January) Young Avengers. It's good... but we still could do with a little more (esp. a BIG named couple).

    Quote Originally Posted by Time_to_Zap View Post
    By the way, everything Kieran has been saying...I fully appreciate and agree with. ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    And THAT was my point, thank you.
    QUESTION: Which significant established character WOULD you support being outed?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    In the case of Cannonball and Sunspot, both characters have been established as exclusively heterosexual within the canon. Admittedly, during the 80s, when they were created, comics were different from today (better, in many ways, but I digress), but one area in which comics were less progressive, for want of a better word, was in their treatment of sexuality. I mean, John Byrne, provided one can take anything he says at face value, has stated that he always intended for Northstar to be gay, but wasn't allowed to explicitly state this, and Chris Claremont had to sneak Mystique and Destiny's relationship past the radar by use of the obscure word 'leman'.
    Sunspot and Cannonball were created in a time when they COULDN'T be gay. Where Marvel had an open policy of "No GAYS in Marvel". This was not recinded until 1991. So saying two characters were established straight when the couldn't be gay, doesn't really mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    I am against the over-sexualising of comic books, and this applies as much to heterosexual couplings as homosexual ones. Comics should be something written for anyone from children upwards, with maybe a few 'mature' titles (as was done in the MAX line in the past) that are either out of continuity or are 'side-trips' that add to the experience for older readers, should they wish to read them, but do not have to be read in terms of the ongoing storyline. .
    And this has WHAT to do with an LGBT character? Why do you assume a gay character would be overly sexual or inappropriate for kids?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    [That said, I do not see a problem with same-sex couples...in today's world, many younger readers, even, will know of someone who is gay, perhaps even a family member, and I imagine that having organically developed and balanced characters who just happen to be gay would be helpful to some young comic fans who are realising things about themselves. I see all that. .
    You see same-sex couples as inherantly overly sexual... so I do wonder how true the bolded is.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
    I just think that, say, suddenly making someone like Peter Parker or Ben Grimm gay would be the wrong way to go about this, as the characters have been established as straight. As I already stated, by all means, take a character whose orientation was never examined in great detail and run with them, maybe even someone who was shown to date a member of the opposite sex once or twice over the decades, but an out-and-out straight character should no more turn gay than someone like Wiccan should turn straight.
    Men with a wife and kids, men who sleep with A LOT of women... they can be gay in real life. Why can't you accept this fact (which is normal and true) in a world already larger than life? I appreciate you are trying, but from what you've written... truthfully; I don't think you are as ready to be "okay" with an LGBT couple as you profess. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but that's the impression you've given me. You're trying to understand, and that's great. But just putting "I'm okay with gay people, we're all flawed human beings" doesn't then negate any future comments from being a little... unenlightened (shall we say).
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 11-27-2012 at 07:09 AM.
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    QUESTION: Which significant established character WOULD you support being outed?
    Let me think. Torch is fine, Spider-Man, Captain Marvel (Carol) If you look at the catagory where I see others: Red She-Hulk, Domino.

  11. #131
    I just want to hit #$%& Sanji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    Let me think. Torch is fine, Spider-Man, Captain Marvel (Carol) If you look at the catagory where I see others: Red She-Hulk, Domino.
    Butch women and twinks, uh.

  12. #132
    Hated and Feared NewMutant's Avatar
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    I always thought a gay James Bond would be fun.
    My Canon > Your Canon

  13. #133
    Senior Member Addams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    I always thought a gay James Bond would be fun.
    Nice concept, i would watch that.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMutant View Post
    I always thought a gay James Bond would be fun.
    You seen Skyfall?

  15. #135
    ♥♥ dilettante ♥♥ Pixie_Solanas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanji View Post
    Butch women and twinks, uh.
    Bulldogs, bears and catz, oh my.

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