Why do people complain about Matt Fraction?

[Desaad]

Because that's not what's happening. Despite the fact that he's currently writing one of the most critically acclaimed books around (Hawkeye) people still say "he's a terrible writer".

Because his highest profile gigs have been awful, probably.

I mean, Jesus, Fraction's Thor run was NOT terrible.

No, it really, really was. It was awful.

Even the legendary Grant Morrison had a misfire (IMO) with Final Crisis, doesn't mean he's suddenly a talentless hack.

That's your opinion; many of us think that Final Crisis was great, even brilliant. It's divisive, but it's dense, it's ambitious, it has spawned countless annotations.

Anyway, it's not fair to compare Fraction to Grant Morrison, or anyone to Grant Morrison really.

But the fact remains that Fraction puts out a lot of bad writing, and managing expectations is to be expected.

Look, I very much like James Robinson's Starman. I LOVED his recent Shade maxi-series, all 12 glorious issues of it. But whenever he's put on a book I grit my teeth and cringe a little, because he as often puts out horrible work as he does good. It's entirely up to the circumstance, both in terms of how much freedom he has and how appropriate the characters and the world are for his style.

Fraction is the same way, and always will be. I'll pick up any issue of Casanova with vigor, but I've read too much truly mediocre work from the man to get excited about it.

[T.M. Anthony]

You know what? This. Different strokes for different folks, and all, but my biggest response to FI was a resounding "Meh." Which was my response to Secret Invasion, and House of M. The only crossover in the past few years that actually riled me was Civil War.

I'm not saying FI was great or anything, (Although some of the tie-ins were neat), but nothing in it was so terribly offensive to warrant a lot of the hate I see it get.

I guess I just think more in grays over story lines. Just because something isn't the best doesn't mean its awful, thats thinking far too black and white for my tastes.

It feels like a lot of people consider a "meh" story to be an awful one. To me that just means it wasn't that great. I personally thought it was okay with a few missteps along the way for an otherwise worthwhile concept.

FI doesn't deserve what it gets at all to me. Amazons Attack deserves it. Ultimatum deserves it. Fear Itself? Not so much.

[Bionder]

Fraction's ruined Punisher War Journal when he brainwaved the Punisher and with that he killed an inocent by his own hands.

[Paladin King]

NOT TRUE

The Order, cancelled
The Defenders, cancelled
Thor, barely readable
Iron Man, a whole lotta huffing and puffing, nothing will be remembered 6 months from now, though i enjoyed some of the issues.
Fear Itself? The worst comic of the year.

The rest of his body of work is not good

Aja saves his IF and Hawkeye.

esp when his big works, Fear Itself, Thor, Iron Man, Uncanny X-men (exposed to lots of readers, why are people surprised? ) He's a poor writer. But damn is he clever on Twitter!

I should've included "hyperbolic" in my description of the internet comic intelligentsia.

I also enjoy your seeming to equate "canceled" with "bad." That someone could honestly believe that is mind numbing.

Also, why is a comic "bad" simply because other writers don't pick up on its plotlines? Who cares whether a series is "remembered" by later runs or respected by continuity? why is that damning of the work itself.

Also, saying Aja saves Hawkeye is the sort of spurious bunk that's spread by Fraction's naysayers and this week's issue completely disproved that asinine logic of Fraction playing no part in Hawkeye's quality: David Aja didn't even draw this week's issue and it was still awesome. Though I guess you'll try to argue that thsi week, Javier Pulido also saved Hawkeye and Fraction STILL had nothing tod o with how good the book is. That someone could honestly believe that the writer of Hawkeye has nothing to do with the book's quality and requires "saving" is nothing but delusional.

[aNamored]

Personally, I didn't like a lot of Matt's work until the later issues of Defenders and Hawkeye. Just think he does not fit all the titles Marvel has asked him to do (Thor, Punisher War Zone to name but two.) Then there is Fear Itself which I couldn't stand. I didn't like Casanova so...

These days, I'll take a peak at certain things he writes. Sticking with Hawkeye despite my not liking Kate, the crime angle etc., because it is very well done and fun.

FF and F4, really no desire to read those.

I wish he had more time to define and run with the Defenders. Oh well...

[Pixie_Solanas]

No, it really, really was. It was awful.

Really? It was fine. The introduction of the All-Mother was a stroke of genius.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Personally, I didn't like a lot of Matt's work until the later issues of Defenders and Hawkeye. Just think he does not fit all the titles Marvel has asked him to do (Thor, Punisher War Zone to name but two.) Then there is Fear Itself which I couldn't stand. I didn't like Casanova so...

These days, I'll take a peak at certain things he writes. Sticking with Hawkeye despite my not liking Kate, the crime angle etc., because it is very well done and fun.

FF and F4, really no desire to read those.

I wish he had more time to define and run with the Defenders. Oh well...

Defenders, for its short run, had two of the best single issues i've ever read. Ever.

[chariset]

I wish he had more time to define and run with the Defenders. Oh well...

I was able to ask him if he had plans for further Defenders stories after the 'end' of the main arc, and he replied

sort of. there was meant to be three, maybe four years of stuff between issues 8 and 12 that, basically, to reach any kind of conclusion, had to be very poorly compressed down into the back-half of the book. i remain proud of issue nine; the rest is a triage job at best. but the axe fell when i was too pregnant to resolve it any better. at least any better than i've been able to think of yet.

so it was always going to end with strange tweaking the teabag in the past to send a message to himself to try being kind instead of scared and angry all the time, and that making all the difference, and everything getting undone.

just... y'know, in 2014 or so. oh well.

Defenders at its best was just crazy fun. I'm sure the weirdness-on-weirdness would have gotten old after a while; it started slow; and Fraction committed an act of character assassination on Strange at the very beginning which I'll never forgive. But I was enjoying the ride and was sorry to see it go.

Immortal Iron Fist, or at least the first two volumes -- my one and only complaint is that it set the standard for Iron Fist stories so impossibly high that no one has written him that well since.

[USERNAME TAKEN]

Because his highest profile gigs have been awful, probably.




No, it really, really was. It was awful.




That's your opinion; many of us think that Final Crisis was great, even brilliant. It's divisive, but it's dense, it's ambitious, it has spawned countless annotations.

Anyway, it's not fair to compare Fraction to Grant Morrison, or anyone to Grant Morrison really.

But the fact remains that Fraction puts out a lot of bad writing, and managing expectations is to be expected.

Look, I very much like James Robinson's Starman. I LOVED his recent Shade maxi-series, all 12 glorious issues of it. But whenever he's put on a book I grit my teeth and cringe a little, because he as often puts out horrible work as he does good. It's entirely up to the circumstance, both in terms of how much freedom he has and how appropriate the characters and the world are for his style.

Fraction is the same way, and always will be. I'll pick up any issue of Casanova with vigor, but I've read too much truly mediocre work from the man to get excited about it.

Well, your opinion on Thor is still just your opinion. It wasn't terrible. I'm pretty sure a lot of people commenting on his Thor run here never read it and are simply repeating the opinion of others. It wasnt excellent but it wasnt awful. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Everything Burns and the God Seed (the fight scenes were admittedly weak) were in fact quite good. It seems you forget that Fraction introduced Kid Loki, Asgardia and the All-mother.

I won't get into the Final Crisis discussion here but it wasn't a story that played out well. It was very much like Fear Itself in that it had solid foundations and grand ideas but the story basically broke down towards the end.

I like that you brought up James Robinson as its a very apt comparison. Robinson had a bad mini in Cry for Justice but he's also put out a lot of good stuff. However, the Internet crowd (particularly the comic crowd) being what they are simply choose to focus on the negative. James Robinson has his weaknesses as a writer, every writer does but by and large the man is a solid writer (and im really enjoying Earth-2).

There is no bad, just ok, good and great with the comic fan. It's either "the worst thing everrrrrrr" or "this is the greatest work of literature since God knows when". I'm not a Fraction fan by any stretch of the imagination but the constant hyperbole is something that I find unnecessary.

[Desaad]

Well, your opinion on Thor is still just your opinion.

And yours is, what, fact? You made a declarative statement that presented your opinion as an absolute. I replied in kind.

It wasn't terrible.

And here you're doing it again. Directly after dismissing my statement as opinion.

This whole thread is about opinion, the opinion of Matt Fraction's writing.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people commenting on his Thor run here never read it and are simply repeating the opinion of others.

Ahhh, the subtle implication that I haven't read any of the work I'm critiquing, said just vaguely enough that you've got plausible deniability later on. Classy, sir.

I've read Fraction's ENTIRE run, including the very good Ages of Thunder/Blood one shots and minis that preceded it, and the Secret Invasion special mini series with artwork by Dougie Braithwaite which was also pretty okay.

His actual run was atrocious, in my opinion, and in the opinion of others. If you need to rationalize that away with "they don't know what they're talking about" to make yourself feel better, that's fine, but if you want honest opinions on why people don't like Fraction's work, you're getting them.

It wasnt excellent but it wasnt awful. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

It's really great that we have you to put an end to all debate in regards to an opinion on quality. I guess this whole message board is essentially useless, eh? We can just email you directly to get our thoughts? (since, again, my opinion is 'just' an opinion, where as yours clearly holds more weight).

It seems you forget that Fraction introduced Kid Loki, Asgardia and the All-mother.

Nothing about Asgardia or the All Mother were good. He introduced all the Fear Itself mythology as well, which you admit was 'bad', but Gillen turned that into something quite good -- am I to praise him for Gillen's work? Do I have to like the stories that introduced "Animal Man' because I enjoyed Grant Morrison's wonderful run on the character? Of course not.

I won't get into the Final Crisis discussion here but it wasn't a story that played out well.

Man, here I've been labouring under this belief that I thought it was good all these years.

I like that you brought up James Robinson as its a very apt comparison. Robinson had a bad mini in Cry for Justice but he's also put out a lot of good stuff. However, the Internet crowd (particularly the comic crowd) being what they are simply choose to focus on the negative. James Robinson has his weaknesses as a writer, every writer does but by and large the man is a solid writer (and im really enjoying Earth-2).

Which is fine. Glad that is how you look at things. But I look at Cry For Justice, or his JL run, or his Superman run, and I have my doubts when he gets put on a new title, and those doubts are very justified by what came before. If it's good, it's good. I had no problem admitting as much when Shade was coming out. His Earth 2 has good and bad points.

There is no bad, just ok, good and great with the comic fan. It's either "the worst thing everrrrrrr" or "this is the greatest work of literature since God knows when". I'm not a Fraction fan by any stretch of the imagination but the constant hyperbole is something that I find unnecessary.

And here you are generalizing.

Casanova is brilliant. Fear Itself is awful. Thor is awful. Uncanny was mediocre. Iron Man was pretty good, from what i read (through Stark Disassembled). The Order was good.

And there are plenty of people who will say the same.

But if a writer is putting out roughly 50% awful work and 50% good-great work, I'm not going to have a lot of love for that writer, or at the very least I'm going to be wary about anything I see from him or her in the future, and will be paying attention to the details. I'm not sure why any of this bothers to such a great degree.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Desaad, per usual, covered a lot of what I was going to say.

He's pretty much like James Robinson. When he's on, he's pretty damn good.


But what he's off, well... He deserves the flack he gets.

[celestialbodies]

In his writing, I haven't seen a team book where he's been able to let every character shine yet. There's one star, and a lot of hangers-on. This worked well in Iron Man, where the book is clearly about Tony Stark, but it really made his Uncanny X-Men run go off the rails, when it became all about neo-conservative Cyclops and the rest of the mutant wallpaper.

Previously fleshed out characters like Emma Frost were relegated to getting humped by Cyclops, while being used as a telepathic walkie-talkie and missions and literally being told to shut up when trying to give input. Storm would go whole long stretches without a line. All that did was frustrate the holy hell out of any fan who was reading for any character not named Scott Summers. "The Sisterhood" was honestly the biggest clusterf*** (for lack of a better term) in terms of a plot that made sense that you'll ever try to find.

Now, I gave his run on Thor a chance, after having read most of the JMS run, and barely made it through the first arc. Hell, from his first issue alone, Thor has Lady Sif in his bed, but isn't in the mood because after the events of "Siege", he "misses his brother, Loki". The same Loki, who but a few months before had STOLEN Sif's body. And she just sits there and takes it.

That's probably another detriment... his female characters often only exist to pine over, or sexually service whoever the protagonist is to make them look good. Even when Maria Hill is given panel time to look tough in his Iron Man, she ends up in bed with Tony.

"Fear Itself" was the "everyone gets a magic hammer" event, that ended where all the heroes get a magic something else handed to them by Thor, because Tony Stark got Odin's attention (even though Thor was gonna get murdered) by sacrificing his sobriety (say whut?)

Finish that up with his interviews... all through that Uncanny X-Men run, there were tons of X-Positions and other interviews that had fans dying to know what happened next. And the hype over everything fell flat through the whole first year. By the time "Utopia" rolled around, fans already had begun wondering how Emma Frost's bargain with Norman Osborn to be on the Dark X-Men would affect the story. So Fraction, in an interview, stated that it wasn't a feint, for real, Emma was back to being a villain, and had her reasons.

Two weeks later, she jumped ship back to the X-Men, screwing over Norman Osborn, and Matt Fraction literally said, "Well, I had to lie in the interview because everyone was guessing Emma was gonna betray Norman for Scott. I had to throw them off. Sorry, guys."


At that point, I never took an interview he had to promote a title seriously, and now, I avoid his titles like the plague. There isn't enough of a moral center for me, it's just male control freaks trying to dominate their corner of the Marvel Universe and sleeping with whatever alpha female they can while dismissing any emotional concern for them. Gets real old, real fast.

This absolutely, Fraction as a writer is just frustrating IMHO, because the potential and ideas are there its just he never delivers he consistently falls into the trap of writing whatever he want regardless if it fit into the overall story organically. His UXM comes to mind because he did introduce a lot of concepts but I cant even regard them highly because I have yet besides Austen read from a writer such a set of characters who had their voices stripped, were wallpaper, or OOC the dynamics there could of been legendary. I never understood after the fact why he'd have all the mutants in the world come to Utopia when his plan was to focus mostly on his favorite.

[Paladin King]

Personally, I didn't like a lot of Matt's work until the later issues of Defenders and Hawkeye. Just think he does not fit all the titles Marvel has asked him to do (Thor, Punisher War Zone to name but two.) Then there is Fear Itself which I couldn't stand. I didn't like Casanova so...

These days, I'll take a peak at certain things he writes. Sticking with Hawkeye despite my not liking Kate, the crime angle etc., because it is very well done and fun.

FF and F4, really no desire to read those.

I wish he had more time to define and run with the Defenders. Oh well...

I think if you don't like Casanova, Fraction probably isn't for you. It's like not liking Criminal and then reading Brubaker, or not liking Alias or Powers and hoping to like Bendis. I can understand not liking Casanova, however.

That being said, I do agree that a lot of the problem with Fraction's weaker work is that he was "miscast" by Marvel. I don't think his Thor was the unreadable nightmare that Desaad and others think it was, but overall, it was pretty mediocre in my opinion. Putting him on big, standard superhero books like Thor, Fear Itself, or Uncanny X-Men is just a bad idea. Matt Fraction is not even remotely similar to a Mark Waid or Geoff Johns. Putting him on Punisher: War Zone was also a terrible mistake: again, Fraction is not at all similar to a Greg Rucka or Jason Aaron or any other hard-bitten crime author.

On the plus side, it seems like Marvel has finally figured out how best to place Fraction, given there recent choice of projects for him: FF with Allred, Hawkeye, Defenders were much better choices for Fraction and it makes me wonder why it took so long for them to figure out how best to use him.

[Paladin King]

Desaad, per usual, covered a lot of what I was going to say.

He's pretty much like James Robinson. When he's on, he's pretty damn good.


But what he's off, well... He deserves the flack he gets.

I'm not sure the comparison works any longer given that the Shade maxiseries is literally the ONLY thing Robinson has written that didn't suck (or at least that wasn't extremely mediocre). That's a decade of nothing.

I've read a good amount of Robinson's work and actually, come to think of it, I can't think of anything in his body of work beyond those two runs that are worth much of anything. For me anyway, Robinson is a one-hit wonder.

[Joe Acro]

so it was always going to end with strange tweaking the teabag in the past to send a message to himself to try being kind instead of scared and angry all the time, and that making all the difference, and everything getting undone.

just... y'know, in 2014 or so. oh well.

Huh. Well, I guess I'm glad that it happened sooner rather than later, then. Can't say I cared for that ending. (Though it was pretty much his only way out based on how the story was set up.)