State of Wakanda: The Black Panther Discussion

[Etoma]

Do we have any Africa-native members who read comics? (I don't know about all you guys)

Sometimes one is surprised by the way the most relevant demographics regard things.
I'm reminded of how recently, over on the DC boards, people were critiquing the handling of the new Arab-American Green Lantern as too mired in stereotyped politics, but several actual Arab-America posters came along and were like "Nah doggs this really resonates with my experiences pretty well",

so I would be interested to see whether Africans find Black Panther empowering

As an African comic reader, I prefered Batwing when he was written by Morrison. I can understand the tone and realism Winnick was trying to go for, but to me a lot that stuff just came off a bunch of scratching the surface that didn't amount to anything. Which made me wish he hadn't bothered in the first place.

As for Black Panther, I really, really like the character and Wakanda. Beyond being cool, powerful and possessing a genius level intellect, I really feel that he is a character that shoulders the burden of an entire people. He's not a hero, he's a king that happens to hang out with heroes, he's responsibilities rum much deeper than simply saving lives and swinging away. That's why I liked that Bast asked him to not merely serve his people, but to be their salvation. Black Panther isn't simply a symbol of justice, he is a symbol of his people's past, their culture, their heritage, and their hope; I can't think of any other marvel hero who is such a complete representation of those he protects.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Do you apply the same bias to the likes of Loeb or any of the other so-called "architects" who as Flex pointed out, couldn't even be bothered to write T'Challa and Ororo properly but were all too eager to write them fighting like animals?

Your disdain for Reginald Hudlin is quite obvious.

Carry on.

To Loeb? Absolutely.

But I don't recall Loeb being compared to McDuffie or Priest, so I don't see your point.

[The Cool Thatguy]

1. Cannibal was part of the Black Panther story arc before Black Panther was officially placed back within the main Marvel universe continuity. That means that Hudlin's original story arc was a separate universe at first before they jumped him back in thus making it difficult to revisit the original story.

Bull. He had Cannibal in the background almost up until he died, and absolutely nothing about Cannibal's character makes him difficult to use in mainstream

2. Stereotypical villains? You are kidding right? In the Marvel Universe there are nothing but stereotypical villains starting with the Red Skull (Yeah another Nazi) all the way to Man-Ape who is not a Hudlin creation BTW.

Stereotypical like Black Knight, the drunk Russian Radioactive Man and the Arabian Knight (supported by Saddam and Arafat knock offs despite both being dead at the time). All Hudlin creations, BTW

3. Most super heroes only have a few A-list villains like Magneto or Doom some are as lame as The Vulture or basically get a Marvel encyclopedia it has dozens of them... I'll let you borrow mine with two peices of I.D.

There is no shortage of villains out there that, with a little thought and effort could be made menacing. Hydro-Man, for instance, is a chump. Beating him up isn't a feat. But put him in an airplane...

4. Hey Kevin Smith still hasn't finished that Daredevil run from way back when... You know Marvel drops story arcs all the time sometimes for the sake of a big event or because creative teams have been shuffled around.

The problem is that he never followed up with his arcs, and it was a constant problem.

5. I need names of some of the writers he cant' touch... For example Claremont set a Guinness Book of World Records sales with a co-written Jim Lee issue and then Jim Lee goes on to co-found Image, make creator owned characters and then move to the executive suite as a mover and shaker at DC while Claremont struggles to get back in the game. For X-fans are you sure so and so is better or is it because of the favoritism shown for certain guys when they fail but get second and third chances to correct their mishaps?

Dunno what your point is, but Claremont has proven himself a skilled writer for years. Hudlin, less so.

[Onyenkwere]

To Loeb? Absolutely.

But I don't recall Loeb being compared to McDuffie or Priest, so I don't see your point.

Of course you don't see the point.

Do you go around lambasting Loeb for any of the stuff he writes that isn't up to scratch as much as you do Hudlin?

[Seresecros]

Of course you don't see the point.

Do you go around lambasting Loeb for any of the stuff he writes that isn't up to scratch as much as you do Hudlin?

just to point out - Loeb isn't one of the architects, and he didn't write AvX. carry on

[Onyenkwere]

No to the unfans because they will lead you no where. Again, Hudlin's Panther was never about screw you white people, it was screw you haters and that's exactly what he did. We've gone through this all before. You cannot satisfy the unfan. Marvel has tried. They gave us the Roy Thomas Panther. They gave us the Mayberry Doom War Panther. They tried to saddle Mr Liss with that Panther but he got out of that quickly. And through it all, Marvel didn't gain a single unfan and alienated alot of real fans.

If Mr Hudlin gave us social commentary in his work, so be it. Claremont did a ton of it in Uncanny X-Men and so did Mark Gruenwald in Captain America. I've said it once and I'll say it a thousand times though many have disagreed:Black Panther is not a superhero. He should not be written as a superhero. He is a king and should be written accordingly. Some things that he does as a king makes many uncomfortable. Yet what has he done differently than Doom or Namor other than show more humility and leniency.

This post is another solid gold moment.

Thanks for posting it marvell2100.

[Onyenkwere]

just to point out - Loeb isn't one of the architects, and he didn't write AvX. carry on

Did I say he wrote AvX?

I used Loeb as a good example of a writer who isn't an overall fan favorite who doesn't get as much sustained abuse as Hudlin does by fans still crying foul years after he last wroten anything Black Panther related.

And even if you're arguing that loeb isn't an architect in the accepted marvel parlance, there's no arging against the fact that he is a recognized mover and shaker within the company.

I'm also well aware of the fact that it was Jason Aaron who wrote the craptastic AvX issues featuring the Black Panther and Storm tearing into each other and I can comfortably say that his works standard was definitely sub par when compared to Hudlin's on the same two characters.

Carry yourself out.

[Global Honored]

Did I say he wrote AvX?

I used Loeb as a good example of a writer who isn't an overall fan favorite who doesn't get as much sustained abuse as Hudlin does by fans still crying foul years after he last wroten anything Black Panther related.

And even if you're arguing that loeb isn't an architect in the accepted marvel parlance, there's no arging against the fact that he is a recognized mover and shaker within the company.

I'm also well aware of the fact that it was Jason Aaron who wrote the craptastic AvX issues featuring the Black Panther and Storm tearing into each other and I can comfortably say that his works standard was definitely sub par when compared to Hudlin's on the same two characters.

Carry yourself out.

You need to read more Loeb threads. Or better yet, don't for your own sanity. The guy gets killed around here in truth. More than most. Well...maybe Bendis.

Also to point out...everyone, try not to make this about other fans. Talk the comics. Talk the characters. Talk the writers and artists even, years and years after the fact as it may be. But drop all the attacks and insinuations about other people's opinions b/c it many times doesnt ring true. It's too simplified and knee jerk w/o truly considering the other side, opposing viewpoint. Both for and against. Base criticism on the merits of work and or arguments for/against, please. Heck, the new Hawkeye by Fraction is a critical darling and fan fave....and Cool That Guy has made plenty of critical assessments of Fraction's characterizations and work there. I think he may have a thing against archers myself.

Hudlin is criticized, sure. This is a comic book forum. This is the Internet. That ain't an exclusive thing. And unfortunately, these same debates do go on for years and years and years no matter how badly certain mods would love for them just to peace out.

[Vic Vega]

O.K., this is getting like the Avengers boards where dudes are STILL railing over Bendix even after he is gone.

Or folks complaining about Hawkeye being changed when its clear that this Marvel finally got somebody other than Hawkeye stans to like the
character.

We get it you didn't like it. But somebody else did and it was a net win for the book, even if it personally pissed you off.

[GOD]

YIKES! Lots of pages went by over the last couple of days!

Trying to play catch up in this thread is always a treat. Lots of excellent post in here. Good job Wakandans.

EDIT!!! I just rad PupsOfWars post and wow! Very awesome post and another reason this thread is my fave.

[FLEX HECTIC]

The That Coolguy,



1. Ahem... DUH Marvel often interferes with current story arcs with big events so all hands on deck editorial mandates means drop what you are doing on your own character so that they can either insert them into the mainstream universe or make like a holding pattern until they can sort things out. Hudlin has already spoken about the editorial interference as did Maberry and Liss.

2. Weak villains are a matter personal opinion especially for characters that literally call themselves names after their own particular intentions or actions like Doom who never quite gets to the "Doom" part and kills anybody significant because last I checked after numerous scuffles he has no confirmed kills against the Fantastic Four or most of the Marvel universe who eventually defeats him each and every time he starts up drama. That's generic. "Hey, look it's Destruction Dude" "Don't worry he will destroy a few things with a menacing stare and then get stopped by a team of heroes only to break away and do it all over again!" SEE... Most if not all super heroes have been doing the same thing since the 1930's... Rinse... Dry... Repeat. I said you can borrow my Marvel encyclopedia with two pieces of I.D. and thumb through it... I aint doing your homework for you.

3. Hydro Man? So you want Hudlin to jack Priest's idea? C'mon son you are reaching there. I'm allowing you the courtesy to do this one over again... GO!

4. A constant problem following up arcs? Excuse me... Hudlin only had 40+ issues to work with many of which were interrupted by events like Civil War and the Skrull invasion. If you need a map or a compass go to Umbra's kiosk at the center of the CBR forum and and tell him Flex sent you to get the 10% discount. Marvel is full of dropped stories even CBR has a blog about all the tall tales that were never finished up use the search button and go fetch them out.

5. Proven himself huh? George Lucas proved himself if you ignore the Ewoks, Boba Fett's death, Uhm "Leia, is my sister", Darth Vader as a child, Darth Vader as a teen, Darth Vader as an adult and the the gift that keeps on giving Jar Jar Binks. Now with that said we can appreciate anything an architect does but it is their faults that stand out in history like a star athlete fumbling the ball in the Super Bowl. You can praise Claremont right up until you ask him why he jacked the pseudo Martin Luther King/Malcolm X ideology and falls face flat when it comes to the depiction of black males in the x-universe. "OUCH!" This is like praising white athletes for such greatness before black athletes are allowed to play and since Marvel has this less than 2% segregation thing going on in hiring black "Architects" it's hard to tell under fair competition who really shines when tested by the threat of other guys assuming your job when you show the slightest fall off. Explain to me how great "Architects" once had millions in sales per issue only to barely to crack the 100,000 sales mark for any current issue today... How in the heck do such confirmed great writers hemorrhage such mass amount of consumers and then still be considered so great? I smell a similar Soundscan type scandal brewing but nobody really investigates the actual sales numbers of comics to see if Diamond is on the up and up but that is a whole other thread entirely.


Simple Math...


If Hudlin goes from 50,000 sales a month down to 20,000 sales a month while Great Big Ole "Architect" X goes from 1,900,000 to 40,000 a month with characters that are waaaaaaay bigger than Black Panther in comics, cartoons and cinema how can they still be considered all that and a bag of chips!

If we were talking stockbrokers here and people's life saving there would either be folks jumping out the windows or getting thrown out the windows with those type of losses!

Sorry... I don't do the jock holding or worshipping for most of these legends like others because as soon as that Marvel umbrella of protection was dropped many of these dudes folded without the help of the system backing them up!




"Put the clock on em... I'll chew they @$$#$!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tejl_QRv6vc

[Greg Anderson]

Anyone picked up A+X yet?

[Fast]

Yeah Loeb's not an architect and I personally don't think he has written anything that great while at Marvel except for Spider-Man: Blue and DD: Yellow and maybe a few other things. He also tends to make the character he is writing about super duper awesome beyond reason like many claim Hudlin does which is an interesting similarity. But yeah even those who hate, hate, hate his work admit the guy is a cool guy in person and are still empathetic to what happened to his son (which IIRC seems to be the downhill point for his writing as most of his good stuff was before that and his most hated stuff after that with a few exceptions). I'm hoping those who hate Bendis' and Hudlin's, etc's work also know better than to hate the writer personally as well.

[Global Honored]

Anyone picked up A+X yet?

I didn't pick that up, so many exciting new releases this week that it didnt quite make the cut. I will definitely be checking out the review/spoilers thread though. As a fan, I am hoping for some way the two can mutually resolve the issues thrown at them. And as a poster and mod, I am praying for a miracle.

[FLEX HECTIC]

I was almost Loeb's personal trainer when I found out that my former boss trained him.


I recall seeing him at the gym but I did not know him by face at that time so he was just another victim of metabolic torture.


Once my boss told me who he was I insisted on him being placed on my hit list for push ups and ab crunches detail but that was around the time his son passed away so he never came back.


I later met him at a comic shop that he goes to and introduced myself trying to get him to come back and take his torturing like a man... Yeah if he was one of my victims that Ultimate Black Panther would have turned out a little different.


I would have have that man doing pull ups off the side of a mountain cliff for Ultimate Black Panther until he understood that deconstruction and watering down it is not a part of this nutritious breakfast.


NAW... As usual I would have probably had lunch with him and explained why black super heroes could be a better revenue generator with the proper support.


I often wear one of my Black Panther t-shirts when I train clients so that could have made for interesting conversation in between stretching and warm ups.


I should go back and post in the Hudlin forums and see if I can get him as a client just for kicks...