State of Wakanda: The Black Panther Discussion

[Mr MajestiK]

I've seen Kieran do the exact same thing in the Blue Marvel thread. Was straight up ranting about the character being a mary sue for weeks only to find out he never read the Blue Marvel mini.

Opposing viewpoints are welcomed but you gotta do the required reading first. Going off a couple of scanned pages isn't going to give proper context. like I pointed out earlier it was an ongoing problem with Hudlin's run. people cherry picked things and used them to bash the book.

The dishonesty inherent in this sort of behaviour is really breathtaking in scope and really makes one question what the real motives are behind a lot of the faux outrage Hudlin's work with Ororo and T'Challa caused amongst some of these readers who never even read the damn book in the first place to get a proper perspective.

How in the frak do you criticise something you have no real knowledge of other than a coupe of scans posted on an internet forum?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Now, I'm not going say that I've never been guilty of the same.

Like, I read Jungle Action a long time ago, so not all the material I remember. And though I still read the X-titles, I've dropped a few like X-Factor and X-Force. So occasionally I can be spotty on things (but I do read Brian Wood's X-Men titles). However, I usually know when not to approach it if I don't have the information, or I ask for it from the person I'm debating against.

[SilverZeal]

Sometimes, these things fly under the radar.

My cousin hipped me to the post and I initially didn't believe him until I checked it out for myself.

The mind boggles and I must say that I'm really dissapointed in Kieran at this point.

maybe if he'd taken the time to check out what Hudlin was doing with T'Challa and Ororo he wouldn't have been on that whole Hudlin's wack merry go round.





The much maligned Hudlin some choose to blindly hate even though they never even read the mans work, was the only writer who ever bothered to flesh out the African-American part of Ororo's heritage while others were content to have her be this ethnically neutral character.

Now...Hudlin definitely gat mad props frm us/SZ 4 dat(in those scans), he gave Storm sumthing gr8 which d X-writers & X-editors wud hv ran with 4 gr8 lengths dat cud hv possibly had Storm with a solo by now.

Hudlin md Storm Xavier's living dream 4 mutants & gv/found her biological extended family.

We/SZ aint saying dat Hudlin was all dat supa-gr8 but he definitely had his really gd moments.

Any1 up 2 Hudling writing Cage, IF, nu Powerman &crew in a H4H title?

[jabu46]

How do you "turn away fans" and still manage to outsell your predecessor whose stories were supposedly more palatable to the casual reader?

"Hudlin's sales increased because he had a constant influx of guest stars and crossovers, and the numbers went down immediately afterwards. And it's not hard to see why.

Honestly, even putting aside the politics and the man himself, his series just freakin' sucked

How long did it take that Cannibal subplot to go exactly nowhere at all? Not a single villain acted as a foil for T'Challa, Shuri was virtually useless the entire run and it wasn't until he put T'Challa in a coma that Hudlin made a creative choice for a villain (Morlun). And lastly, he never really expanded on the relationship between the villains he did use, Klaw and Killmonger.

Hudlin did little more than thread water while he was the writer. The Secret Invasion arc had more power and emotion in a single issue than ten of his."


This mostly. To honestly answer the question, but I wouldn't use the same language. Respectfully, Onyenkwere, you and a few others (Flex) go on about his increased numbers over Priest, for example, but ignore taking into account three things: the massive amount of promotion, crossovers, and guest artists and two: Hudlin's own name and connections within the black community, and three: marriage to one of the biggest franchises in comics. To say it was all about Hudlin's writing is intellectually dishonest of the man and his backers. "The numbers don't lie" indeed...they dont, but the puffed-chest play on words argument crumbles when brought under unbiased scrutiny.

Of course a major filmmaker and tastemaker and president of a network is going to sell more comics he's writing. Especially when he's going on black radio, black talk shows, and calling his editor and culture critic friends at Vibe and so forth to help promote the book. Not that I'm hating, but yeah, Hudlin had connections Marvel didn't have, and he was able to reach a larger crowd, mostly black, (which is a good thing, not saying it isn't) through those avenues. Marvel knew it, which is partially, if not mostly, why he got the job. Please, if Marty Scorsese wrote the Punisher, and he promoted it with HIS connections, you'd have a top selling book.

And if people think the much promoted and pushed "marriage of the century" didn't drastically help, you're being dishonest too. Hate on Storm, but at the time and still now she's a bigger name than Panther, mainly because she's a major character within one of the biggest and most fanatical franchises in comics. It was controversial to no end, but was a huge draw, especially with Hudlin, again, promoting it as a marriage between the two biggest black characters in comics through the many connections and avenues he had to the black community, whom I know added onto it. And Storm's prescence was there to the end of the series, onto the now much hated Doomwar. Heck, with all of that it should've sold even more.

Add these two truths on with the book being involved with Civil War, opening with legendary John Romita Jr, and again, with a fairly well known filmmaker writing it, and Axel Alonso pushing it, you're going to sell more comics. Especially compared to Priest, who is not as well known, does not have anywhere near the connections, and did not get the same level of promotion and the benefit of crossovers and a marriage to a major star of the biggest franchise in comics. Wanna be real? Let's be real.

This doesn't take away from the fact that the man had passion for the character. He did, no doubt. But the backlash from the comics community, on here and otherwise, is legendary. It's STILL discussed on his forum, and even on CBR. And you guys on here go on and on about the hate the character, and Hudlin, gets from people on CBR and so forth. I used to look at this board back then and peeps were doing it then. That's why it's weird to me that FLEX is asking for "stats" he knows can't be found or shown, when he himself along with many others have complained about the hate the character gets and Hudlin's run gets. Why do you need stats when YOU are aware of it and basically say the reaction comes from white fans? Some were annoyed by Panther and others were apathetic to the character when Priest was doing him, but the full on hate and polarizing fanbase that the very people on this board have talked about (and is shown on boards outside of this one) before I even joined came under Hudlin. It was a far bigger backlash than anything Priest got, and I never saw such polar opposite emotions for the character under Priest.

So the after-effect is what it's mostly about. A character should be able to sell and be popular after the popular writer leaves, and be appreciated by a wide fanbase. After Hudlin, and his honestly short run which was fading, this didnt happen. You had a fanbase like the one on here that loved him, and one that reached farther in the black community gaining more, but another fanbase that vehemently hates the character where some liked him or just didnt care about him. Some because of what happened with Storm, some because of the in your face racial politics, or both. The character could not continue a run in his own book, could not continue in another, and his marriage is destroyed. Are the fans that were reached out to in the black community coming back for NA, especially now that the marriage is gone? Hope so. We'll see.

Also Flex, how many fans were there for the Black panther comic, and how many were there because they were fans of House Party? Were they there for the character or the writer/hollywood filmmaker? Doesn't matter, cause I never said Hudlin hated white people, but I did say he wrote for one target audience along racial lines without considering the other, which some on here have pretty much agreed with. And again, you don't need stats you know can't be shown when YOU have complained yourself about the level of ire Panther and Hudlin gets from fans in a certain group. Let's not be hypocritical.

But it doesn't matter, if we want T'Challa to remain a niche character. He is and always has been a great character, and I've enjoyed him under all writers but two (Maberry being second) But it might be better that way. I'm already enjoying his showing in NA and and sure I will enjoy more when the book comes out. I'm out like guinness stout. Later.

[Mr MajestiK]

Now, I'm not going say that I've never been guilty of the same.

Like, I read Jungle Action a long time ago, so not all the material I remember. And though I still read the X-titles, I've dropped a few like X-Factor and X-Force. So occasionally I can be spotty on things (but I do read Brian Wood's X-Men titles). However, I usually know when not to approach it if I don't have the information, or I ask for it from the person I'm debating against.

But it's not like you go into threads about any of the books you've mentioned and start pontificating about how wack the respective work (or writers that produced said work) are without even reading the damn books in the first place.

That's the difference.

[Mr MajestiK]

Now...Hudlin definitely gat mad props frm us/SZ 4 dat(in those scans), he gave Storm sumthing gr8 which d X-writers & X-editors wud hv ran with 4 gr8 lengths dat cud hv possibly had Storm with a solo by now.

Hudlin md Storm Xavier's living dream 4 mutants & gv/found her biological extended family.

We/SZ aint saying dat Hudlin was all dat supa-gr8 but he definitely had his really gd moments.

Any1 up 2 Hudling writing Cage, IF, nu Powerman &crew in a H4H title?

I'd be up for reading new material written by Hudlin anytimne of the day.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Random question. I remember a certain Nightwing run that got a major backlash, but only the writer was blamed.

Why is it not the same for BP?

[jabu46]

I'd be up for reading new material written by Hudlin anytimne of the day.

Now...Hudlin definitely gat mad props frm us/SZ 4 dat(in those scans), he gave Storm sumthing gr8 which d X-writers & X-editors wud hv ran with 4 gr8 lengths dat cud hv possibly had Storm with a solo by now.

Hudlin md Storm Xavier's living dream 4 mutants & gv/found her biological extended family.

We/SZ aint saying dat Hudlin was all dat supa-gr8 but he definitely had his really gd moments.

Any1 up 2 Hudling writing Cage, IF, nu Powerman &crew in a H4H title?

Now Cage I think Hudlin should write...in a book or a movie as a solo character. It fits more.

[jabu46]

Random question. I remember a certain Nightwing run that got a major backlash, but only the writer was blamed.

Why is it not the same for BP?

Depends on what the backlash was about.

[Mr MajestiK]

[I]
This mostly. To honestly answer the question, but I wouldn't use the same language. Respectfully, Onyenkwere, you and a few others (Flex) go on about his increased numbers over Priest, for example, but ignore taking into account three things: the massive amount of promotion, crossovers, and guest artists and two: Hudlin's own name and connections within the black community, and three: marriage to one of the biggest franchises in comics. To say it was all about Hudlin's writing is intellectually dishonest of the man and his backers. "The numbers don't lie" indeed...they dont, but the puffed-chest play on words argument crumbles when brought under unbiased scrutiny.

Of course a major filmmaker and tastemaker and president of a network is going to sell more comics he's writing. Especially when he's going on black radio, black talk shows, and calling his editor and culture critic friends at Vibe and so forth to help promote the book. Not that I'm hating, but yeah, Hudlin had connections Marvel didn't have, and he was able to reach a larger crowd, mostly black, (which is a good thing, not saying it isn't) through those avenues. Marvel knew it, which is partially, if not mostly, why he got the job. Please, if Marty Scorsese wrote the Punisher, and he promoted it with HIS connections, you'd have a top selling book.

And if people think the much promoted and pushed "marriage of the century" didn't drastically help, you're being dishonest too. Hate on Storm, but at the time and still now she's a bigger name than Panther, mainly because she's a major character within one of the biggest and most fanatical franchises in comics. It was controversial to no end, but was a huge draw, especially with Hudlin, again, promoting it as a marriage between the two biggest black characters in comics through the many connections and avenues he had to the black community, whom I know added onto it. And Storm's prescence was there to the end of the series, onto the now much hated Doomwar. Heck, with all of that it should've sold even more.

Add these two truths on with the book being involved with Civil War, opening with legendary John Romita Jr, and again, with a fairly well known filmmaker writing it, and Axel Alonso pushing it, you're going to sell more comics. Especially compared to Priest, who is not as well known, does not have anywhere near the connections, and did not get the same level of promotion and the benefit of crossovers and a marriage to a major star of the biggest franchise in comics. Wanna be real? Let's be real.

This doesn't take away from the fact that the man had passion for the character. He did, no doubt. But the backlash from the comics community, on here and otherwise, is legendary. It's STILL discussed on his forum, and even on CBR. And you guys on here go on and on about the hate the character, and Hudlin, gets from people on CBR and so forth. I used to look at this board back then and peeps were doing it then. That's why it's weird to me that FLEX is asking for "stats" he knows can't be shown, when he along with many others have complained about the hate the character gets and Hudlin's run gets. Why do you need stats when YOU are aware of it? Some were annoyed by Panther and others were apathetic to the character when Priest was doing him, but the full on hate and polarizing fanbase that the very people on this board have talked about (and is shown on boards outside of this one) before I even joined came under Hudlin. It was a far bigger backlash than anything Priest got, and I never saw such polar opposite emotions for the character under Priest.

So the after-effect is what it's mostly about. A character should be able to sell and be popular after the popular writer leaves, and be appreciated by a wide fanbase. After Hudlin, and his honestly short run which was fading, this didnt happen. You had a fanbase like the one on here that loved him, and one that reached farther in the black community gaining more, but another fanbase that vehemently hates the character where some liked him or just didnt care about him. Some because of what happened with Storm, some because of the in your face racial politics, or both. The character could not continue a run in his own book, could not continue in another, and his marriage is destroyed. Are the fans that were reached out to in the black community coming back for NA, especially now that the marriage is gone? Hope so. We'll see.

Also Flex, how many fans were there for the Black panther comic, and how many were there because they were fans of House Party? Were they there for the character or the writer/hollywood filmmaker? Doesn't matter, cause I never said Hudlin hated white people, but I did say he wrote for one target audience along racial lines without considering the other, which some on here have pretty much agreed with. But it doesn't matter, if we want T'Challa to remain a niche character. Might be better that way. I'm already enjoying his showing in NA and and sure I will enjoy more when the book comes out. I'm out like guinness stout. Later.

The job of a writer is to promote whatever it is they're writing and in this, Reginald Hudlin did not fail.

He used whatever resources and connections he had within industries outside of the usual comic industry to raise awareness about the project he was attached to at that time which in turn made the work more accesible to readers who would not normally have given such a product the time of day.

Hudlin did what any responsible professional writer ibnvested in a project would do in similar circumstances.

He promoted the hell out of his project and took the kind of chances other writers had failed to take in times past.

Whether he was a brilliant writer or not doesn't really come into the equation and at this point is totally irrelevant.

It's the fact that he put out a body of work that albeit for the duration of his period writing the character, actually attracted more readers which is something that many established and supposedly more seasoned writers have been unable to do.

I admire your tenacity in being quite consistent in your assertions as to how substandard you feel Hudlin's work was but I find myself wondering why as Vic Vega asked a few posts back, Reginald Hudlin still seems to be so important to people who claim to have no interest in his work?

I find this puzzling.

There are a number of even more puzzling generalizations that you continue to casually throw around that do not stand up to scrutiny but I'm just way too tired to go over the same tired arguments that have marred previous threads.

While you remain steadfast in your dislike of Hudlin's work suffice it to say that nothing you've psted on the subject over the last few pages will ever change the fact that his work did what it was supposed to do.

Attract abandoned and ignored readers rather than appealing to the same status quo.

Be well.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You know, I totally agree that Hudlin would be a pretty dang good Falcon or Luke Cage writer.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Depends on what the backlash was about.

Actually you are right. Bad comparison. The issue with that Nightwing run is totally different.

That run is way closer to Mayberry's than anything else. Actually, if what happened to Nightwing happened to Black Panther... Oh god, there would be boycotts.

[SilverZeal]

Do any of you guys read Batwing?

Batwing is a well-intentioned comic with a lot of problems, as far as the "do's and do-not's" of writing an African superhero, and I tend to hold it up as a counterexample to certain problems people have with Black Panther

in that Batwing, I think, tries to be what a lot of people who don't like BP wish BP was, and fails.

We/SZ read d 1st 8 issues but droppd it bcu...well....Batwing is just...just not really his own hero & a lil ovr dependent on Batman.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

There's been a lot less Batman in Batwing.

However, the title itself is so... I don't know, soulless? Without flair?

It's just the wrong title to be so plot-oriented and hollow.

[SilverZeal]

damn you guys everytime I go to sleep I have to do a 20 page catchup

LOL...so true.