State of Wakanda: The Black Panther Discussion

[jabu46]

That might work too. I kinda like the idea of Hudlin's origin to set things up and then take the character in a Priestly direction from there.

I'm actually of the belief that Panther should be introduced in the Avengers first before getting his own movie...just to set him up.

But I'd actually follow the Priest arc, mainly because I think it would reach a larger demographic. A post I had in response to Vic Vega and the post I'm about to respond to flo' with sorta illustrate why...

[Memnoch]

Two sorta obvious candidates to me are Vincent Cassel (does capoeira as seen in the Oceans movies) and Jean Dujardin (his OSS 117 was priceless) and both can be charming, macho as well as sleazy, the best qualities of my preferred Batroc.

How about Mads Mikkelsen for Klaw?

Mads Mikkelson is awesome, even when he's not even speaking(Valhalla Rising), he would make an awesome Klaw, hell he would be a pretty rad White Wolf!

[Imraith Nimphais]

Mads Mikkelson is awesome, even when he's not even speaking(Valhalla Rising), he would make an awesome Klaw, hell he would be a pretty rad White Wolf!

Truth to tell...I always found the Klaw character a bit "campy"...but if Mads were to bring the intensity of "One Eye" to the character well...that would be an Iconic villain in the making.

[AgPhoenix]

"Flo If I may comment, I totally get what you're saying and Hudlin actually said that was the case, but isn't the point of a successful comic and character to get the attention and appeal of all fans? By Hudlin doing that, he turned off a lot of non-black fans and turned away potential ones, and thus the polarized reaction to Panther and Storm that we have now. He definitely reached the black base more, (and why wouldn't he with his connections in the black community) but through the way it was handled largely turned off other fans. I remember a white guy working in a comic book store that felt with the way Hudlin was writing it was saying "this comic isn't for you", which Hudlin in some words has literally said. He was also told by some black comics customers that he can't judge the book cause he's not black. Do we really think Panther can become an A-list hero and actually get a movie that will do good like that?

Even Obama did not get elected by black people alone.

I do think Hickman and Marvel is on to the right track of getting back some of the character's prominence an possibly growing his fanbase more.

You raise a very good point, jabu. With hindsight being 20/20, you could easily say that Hudlin's biggest flaw wasn't his writing, nor his uncompromising stance on how T'Challa should be portrayed, it ws the fact that Hudlin chose to speak out against European Imperialism in a way that made many feel uncomfortable.

That being said, the past few years have taught me that the only way T'Challa wouldn't have his share of detractors is for him not to appear in any significant capacity. Let's face it, the fact that T'Challa even exists is a major sticking point for a vocal part of the fanbase for the simple fact that his very existence is a visual of what a person of color could be in the societal makeup we have now. Even when he was confined to Hell's Kitchen, you had people still catching bad feelings about his feats.

It's for this reason (among others) why you get Flex Hectic's mindset of complete uncompromising, because you have a general tenor that T'Challa will never be accepted like his White counterparts. At that point, I get the strategy of not toning him down to appeal to a White Audience who may not spend money anyway, or find some way to play T'Challa like a part of a fanbase plays Tiana from Princess and the Frog.

[Booshman]

No, most comics don't make it a point to cater to "all fans". Did it ever occur to that white guy working in the comic book shop that the way he felt reading Hudlin's Black Panther is how many non white comic book fans might feel reading other comics?

No, because that would require putting yourself in someone else's shoes, who is still pretty much overlooked.

You raise a very good point, jabu. With hindsight being 20/20, you could easily say that Hudlin's biggest flaw wasn't his writing, nor his uncompromising stance on how T'Challa should be portrayed, it ws the fact that Hudlin chose to speak out against European Imperialism in a way that made many feel uncomfortable.

That being said, the past few years have taught me that the only way T'Challa wouldn't have his share of detractors is for him not to appear in any significant capacity. Let's face it, the fact that T'Challa even exists is a major sticking point for a vocal part of the fanbase for the simple fact that his very existence is a visual of what a person of color could be in the societal makeup we have now. Even when he was confined to Hell's Kitchen, you had people still catching bad feelings about his feats.

It's for this reason (among others) why you get Flex Hectic's mindset of complete uncompromising, because you have a general tenor that T'Challa will never be accepted like his White counterparts. At that point, I get the strategy of not toning him down to appeal to a White Audience who may not spend money anyway, or find some way to play T'Challa like a part of a fanbase plays Tiana from Princess and the Frog.

Co-sign 100% on this entire post. And pointing out the bad parts of Imperialism with the goal of making it less romanticized (because in a general sense with certain groups, it is viewed as a mostly positive time period) is always a good thing.

Heck, even the late McDuffie said that heroes like the BP take away some degree of white escapism from some white folks. I know this is a comic book forum, but this is also an issue with the D&D community. To the point that there is now a meme that is trying to bring light to this issue by making FUN of it.

[jabu46]

No, most comics don't make it a point to cater to "all fans". Did it ever occur to that white guy working in the comic book shop that the way he felt reading Hudlin's Black Panther is how many non white comic book fans might feel reading other comics?

I actually told him that to be fair, even though I'm black and I didn't always feel comfortable reading Hudlin's Panther myself. But the sad truth is this, those other comics, or at least those called Iron man, Superman, Batman, Thor, and so forth, sell, and black readers actually buy them along with white ones. I'm guessing you saw all of the recent Marvel movies and the Batman trilogy? Did you feel uncomfortable? If you did, not enough where you didn't go? And in addition to that, did they speak on their race at all or did they just go and be super-heroes?

To be fair again, the guy LOVED Priest's Panther, and liked Dwayne McDuffie. Probably because they didn't approach race the same blunt way, or at all. But we also partially feel comfortable enough reading those "other comics" because despite the characters not looking like us, they don't really get heavily, if at all, into race. Captain America doesn't speak on the trials of whites, really does not mention race at all. Hell, he doesn't even go on about the percieved greatness of America, as he would appear too nationalistic and turn off fans.

Difference is, if Panther is written for young black men only or especially, and it's made very obvious in how race is bluntly and overtly thrown into it, how do we expect the character to become "A-list" and have a successful ongoing, high selling comic and possibly even a movie? If that's not the goal however, fine.

[upmiddowntown]

Aw man, I really hate when my favs have to fight each other, both have special abilities, tech and stuff that would give them the upper hand, so ultimately I would give to BP, unlike spider man he is simply a better combatant and more likely to render serious bodily harm or kill to win. Funny thing is he told spiderman that he would beat him hand to hand(something along those lines, not the actual quote).

Yep I give BP the edge due to tech and overall fighting skill.

[Booshman]

I actually told him that to be fair, even though I'm black and I didn't always feel comfortable reading Hudlin's Panther myself. But the sad truth is this, those other comics, or at least those called Iron man, Superman, Batman, Thor, and so forth, sell, and black readers actually buy them along with white ones. I'm guessing you saw all of the recent Marvel movies and the Batman trilogy? Did you feel uncomfortable? If you did, not enough where you didn't go? And in addition to that, did they speak on their race at all or did they just go and be super-heroes?

Them being white, they have the luxury of that though. Not having to speak on race, because they're the default who don't need to justify their existence to others, or prove their worth to them.

To be fair again, the guy LOVED Priest's Panther, and liked Dwayne McDuffie. Probably because they didn't approach race the same blunt way, or at all. But we also partially feel comfortable enough reading those "other comics" because despite the characters not looking like us, they don't really get heavily, if at all, into race. Captain America doesn't speak on the trials of whites, really does not mention race at all. Hell, he doesn't even go on about the percieved greatness of America, as he would appear too nationalistic and turn off fans.

Difference is, if Panther is written for young black men only or especially, and it's made very obvious in how race is bluntly and overtly thrown into it, how do we expect the character to become "A-list" and have a successful ongoing, high selling comic and possibly even a movie? If that's not the goal however, fine.

Catering to their increasingly delicate sensibilities only furthers the problem. Things don't just disappear if you keep taking the safe route around the growing issue; which race unarguably is. It only makes the inevitable backlash that more immense, because it's been held off for that long. The reason Captain America doesn't go on about the greatness of America is because we ALREADY have the stereotype of being pompous to the rest of the world. Anything further would tread the line of Jingoism.

[jabu46]

You raise a very good point, jabu. With hindsight being 20/20, you could easily say that Hudlin's biggest flaw wasn't his writing, nor his uncompromising stance on how T'Challa should be portrayed, it ws the fact that Hudlin chose to speak out against European Imperialism in a way that made many feel uncomfortable.

That being said, the past few years have taught me that the only way T'Challa wouldn't have his share of detractors is for him not to appear in any significant capacity. Let's face it, the fact that T'Challa even exists is a major sticking point for a vocal part of the fanbase for the simple fact that his very existence is a visual of what a person of color could be in the societal makeup we have now. Even when he was confined to Hell's Kitchen, you had people still catching bad feelings about his feats.

It's for this reason (among others) why you get Flex Hectic's mindset of complete uncompromising, because you have a general tenor that T'Challa will never be accepted like his White counterparts. At that point, I get the strategy of not toning him down to appeal to a White Audience who may not spend money anyway, or find some way to play T'Challa like a part of a fanbase plays Tiana from Princess and the Frog.

I get Flex's mindset, but that mindset won't even get the movie he wants green-lighted, let alone be made and put into theaters.

And T'Challa, like any character, is going to have detractors...the point is how do you get more appreciators than detractors?
A lot of whites I know, including the comic shop guy I spoke of, LOVED the Priest run. He loved the scene with Cap and Panther on top of the building over the black crowd. It's not like Priest avoided race, he just didn't hit you over the head with it and make it a major component of the book. And he approached it with some sardonic wit and intelligence. It didn't do well when it was first out, but has cult status now. If it was promoted more and Priest made it easier to jump into it, it might have done better. And even most black people agree Panther was a beast in that series, but not so much of a racial component that it made a large potential fanbase uncomfortable. And Everett K Ross didnt hurt.

But I do have to disagree, I think Hudlin's uncompromising view on everything was a flaw, though i respect what he was trying to do. I also just think some of the stories were so contrived and tailored to approach race so desperately it couldnt be taken seriously...the story with the skrulls comes to mind.

And currently, I see a lot of good anticipation from fans with him in the upcoming NA...with very little negativity. I expected someone to say, "he's only there cause he's black"...but I haven't yet. I don't think his existence is a major sticking point for HUGE amount of the fanbase (some just don't care) but I do think it's how it's presented.

[jabu46]

Them being white, they have the luxury of that though. Not having to speak on race, because they're the default who don't need to justify their existence to others, or prove their worth to them.



Catering to their increasingly delicate sensibilities only furthers the problem. Things don't just disappear if you keep taking the safe route around the growing issue; which race unarguably is. It only makes the inevitable backlash that more immense, because it's been held off for that long. The reason Captain America doesn't go on about the greatness of America is because we ALREADY have the stereotype of being pompous to the rest of the world. Anything further would tread the line of Jingoism.

Let me ask you a question: Do you honestly think Obama would have been elected President if he or his wife took that attitude? Don't you think they are as successful as they are now due to taking into consideration their "increasingly delicate sensibilities?"

Now, with that in mind, do you think Black Panther will ever be an "A-list" character if a book or movie with the character doesn't do the same? I never said avoid race entirely, but the way Priest did it, for instance, wasn't as blunt or as in your face.

[Booshman]

Let me ask you a question: Do you honestly think Obama would have been elected President if he or his wife took that attitude? Don't you think they are as successful as they are now due to taking into consideration their "increasingly delicate sensibilities?"

Now, with that in mind, do you think Black Panther will ever be an "A-list" character if a book or movie with the character doesn't do the same? I never said avoid race entirely, but the way Priest did it, for instance, wasn't as blunt or as in your face.

What attitude? You're dishonesty conflating anything beyond the current level with shouting "Ungowa Black Powah!" and pelting white people in the face with frozen bean pies. What are you so damn afraid of? The truth hurts. Tip-toeing around it in a mousey fashion obviously hasn't had the desired effect. If what you're cooking is taking too long, raise the temperature a tiny bit. Don't crank it up, but also don't let it sit at the current temp or you'll be waiting for ages. The latter approach is where we're currently at.

And I as much as I like Panther, I highly doubt he'll ever truly and legitimately be viewed as A-List. Where people will just accept him as such, with little to no argument. Very popular and well known? Absolutely. But Batman or Superman calibur? Ehhh.....

Oh, and as for Obama. Ever since he started "code switching" and doing other "black things", I've heard white people saying that he's got "swagger" and that "he's becoming a man's man". Yeah, you have a few Republicans trying to knock him down a peg, by trying to act as if he's out of pocket and that he doesn't know his place, but that didn't work.

[jabu46]

What attitude? You're dishonesty conflating anything beyond the current level with shouting "Ungowa Black Powah!" and pelting white people in the face with frozen bean pies. What are you so damn afraid of? The truth hurts. Tip-toeing around it in a mousey fashion obviously hasn't had the desired effect. If what you're cooking is taking too long, raise the temperature a tiny bit. Don't crank it up, but also don't let it sit at the current temp or you'll be waiting for ages. The latter approach is where we're currently at.

And I as much as I like Panther, I highly doubt he'll truly ever legitimately be viewed as A-List. Where people will just accept him as such, with little to no argument. Very popular and well known? Absolutely. But Batman or Superman calibur? Ehhh.....

Oh, and as for Obama. Ever since he started "code switching" I've heard white people saying that he's got "swagger" and that "he's becoming a man's man". Yeah, you have a few Republicans trying to knock him down a peg, by trying to act as if he's out of pocket, but that didn't work.

I'm not "dishonestly conflating" anything. Lets not get into name calling and accusations again, cause we see where that went. Remain civil, please.

And you did not answer my question about the Obamas. Do you think he'd be president if he took that attitude? Or more clearly, do you think he'd be President if he spoke on race as bluntly and in your face as that Panther run did?

And yes truth hurts...though it's debatable that everything in Hudlin's run was true. But neverthless, funny thing is, people hold their own truths, and most often avoid the ones they don't like or agree with. But if we dont want Panther to be "A-list" the way Flex for instance goes on about, than fine. With that, its also more than possible that a successful long term ongoing or movie would not even be done.

[Kasper Cole]

I actually told him that to be fair, even though I'm black and I didn't always feel comfortable reading Hudlin's Panther myself. But the sad truth is this, those other comics, or at least those called Iron man, Superman, Batman, Thor, and so forth, sell, and black readers actually buy them along with white ones. I'm guessing you saw all of the recent Marvel movies and the Batman trilogy? Did you feel uncomfortable? If you did, not enough where you didn't go? And in addition to that, did they speak on their race at all or did they just go and be super-heroes?

Bit of a false equivalency....."whiteness" is viewed and treated as the "default" in our society so much that minority moviegoers are simply used to seeing these thing. whether they be things related to race, gender identity, sexuality, or faith. The films themselves don't touch on certain things because they don't HAVE to touch on those things, that's not going to be the case with film centered on a black, Asian, or Latino hero.

The example I always use is, if a story is done about Iron Fist traveling back in time to the 1920's race doesn't have to play ANY factor in that story. If a story is done about Luke Cage traveling to the 1920's it'd be absurd for race to NEVER play a role in that story.

To be fair again, the guy LOVED Priest's Panther, and liked Dwayne McDuffie. Probably because they didn't approach race the same blunt way, or at all. But we also partially feel comfortable enough reading those "other comics" because despite the characters not looking like us, they don't really get heavily, if at all, into race. Captain America doesn't speak on the trials of whites, really does not mention race at all. Hell, he doesn't even go on about the percieved greatness of America, as he would appear too nationalistic and turn off fans.

Priest and McDuffie got damn near the same criticisms from fans about dealing with race. All three writers handled things in very different ways but they all got the exact same complaints in regards to how they handled race in comics.

The reality of it is Black Panther comics have ALWAYS dealt with race in some shape or form. From Lee all the way up to Liss Black Panther writers have touched on the topic of race at some point during their runs. Hudlin's work wasn't even remotely the most heavy handed when dealing with the topic either (that would be Peter Gillis).

Difference is, if Panther is written for young black men only or especially, and it's made very obvious in how race is bluntly and overtly thrown into it, how do we expect the character to become "A-list" and have a successful ongoing, high selling comic and possibly even a movie? If that's not the goal however, fine.

It's not something unique to Black Panther. Some (not all) of those people complaining about it "not being for them" would feel that way regardless of how it was written. It's that "rule of 3" that Dwayne McDuffie talked about.

[Booshman]

I'm not "dishonestly conflating" anything. Lets not get into name calling and accusations again, cause we see where that went. Remain civil, please.

And you did not answer my question about the Obamas. Do you think he'd be president if he took that attitude? Or more clearly, do you think he'd be President if he spoke on race as bluntly and in your face as that Panther run did?

And yes truth hurts...though it's debatable that everything in Hudlin's run was true. But neverthless, funny thing is, people hold their own truths, and most often avoid the ones they don't like or agree with. But if we dont want Panther to be "A-list" the way Flex for instance goes on about, than fine. With that, its also more than possible that a successful long term ongoing or movie would not even be done.

With the amount of people who voted for him in the 1st election, and at that low point in our country's history due to his predecessor? "Yes". Did you even pay attention to how badly he won and how badly this country jumped at the (somewhat misguided, but understandable) chance to come across as "progressive" and not typical backwards Yankee morons, to the rest of the world?

And once again avoiding some truths, especially ones that negatively effect people's lives, is taking the pathetic coward's way out. Increasing the strength of your message a tiny bit is how you get things done.

Bit of a false equivalency....."whiteness" is viewed and treated as the "default" in our society so much that minority moviegoers are simply used to seeing these these.

I said this too, but it was ignored.

Priest and McDuffie got damn near the same criticisms from fans about dealing with race. All three writers handled things in very different ways but they all got the exact same complaints in regards to how they handled race in comics.

And did those criticisms scare them to the point where they stopped doing it, and took the "non-threatening Negro route"? Hell no! They put on their big boy pants and pressed on. And guess what? Both are highly regarded to this day, still.

[Kasper Cole]

I'll also add that from what I've observed white comic book readers have little to no problem with heavy handed storytelling in regards to race. The problems only arise when the writer isn't white and there aren't any white POV characters. God Loves, Man Kills is considered a classic but deals heavily with issues of racism and antisemitism.

The same applies to films, just last year "The Help" was a film that dealt heavily with race and was a financially success, but it was a film written and directed by a white person and had a white POV character.