State of Wakanda: The Black Panther Discussion

[jabu46]

That scene doesn't really make Wolverine look too good. He is basically call someone who fought againts a racist South African government a terroirst. Funny how that's not mentioned.

Also funny how he is commenting that African heads of state go nuts but fails to mention that many of them are in the pocket of European government and financial institutions. A bit of a revisionist history from the ol Canuck.

Someone's "terrorist" is often another person's "freedom fighter"..I agree somewhat about Wolverine, but it's in his character to be that frank and simplistic. He's basically lumping them altogether, no matter their reasons, to say "there are no saints in Africa" which is arguable, but due to the climate there, somewhat true.

He's later dressed down by Doctor Crocodile, who shows the ignorance of some of his views. Great scene. So there is a two-sided argument going on in the book.

[jabu46]

Epting is channeling King Jaffe Joffer from Coming to America. "Is that velvet?"

PETA is SO going to want T'Challa's head...

[marvell2100]

way to miss the point without adding anything to the discussion. congrats.

i didn't say namor wasn't at fault. he's the one who launched the attack. but to say t'challla is blameless on the matter is inaccurate.

I didn't hear you say Namor was responsible either but you're ready to place blame on T'Challa. Yes, you miss the point entirely. At least when Scott went to K'un L'un he had the decency to call out the Avengers. Why didn't he attack K'un L'un in a similar manner as Namor? It is entirely accurate. Namor chose to kill innocent people. Do you honestly think that he wouldn't have done the same if they were anywhere else but Wakanda?

Also people complained when the Avengers took the young mutants and held them out of the fight. Yet scott wa the one who left them there. Do you blame Scott for leaving them behind? And your comments are wrong again. Scott leads the P5 and says they are not at war. Namor takes it upon himself to attack Wakanda with a tidal wave and Atlantean warriors. I don't think I missed your point at all. But please proceed.

[AcesX1X]

i'm not placing the blame on t'challa. i'm saying he bears a responsibility in this madness and he should own up to it. there were tons of places they could have holed up in. and he let them use his capitol city even though he had been warned of a possible cataclysm for his country. that's lunacy.

[jabu46]

Read Priest's run--several times--and Hudlin's run, I would like some recommendations on other runs I should seek out.

Avengers:Red Zone by Geoff Johns and Oliver Coipel. Must read!
Panther's Prey by Don McGregor and Dwayne Turner. Must Read!
Most Dangerous Man Alive by David Liss and Francvilla and Palo. Must read

In addition to this, Panther's Rage by D. McGregor, which you can find in black and white in the Essential BP volume. KillMonger's first appearances, and a year long civil war in Wakanda.

[Anthony Shaw]

Same here, I think he would appreciate some Gamora, BTW, to you and all the other new posters Welcome to Wakanda, where the love is fierce, the loyalty is unwavering and the town laws brutally enforced and to those returning, welcome back!

Damn....a green Wakandan Queen...that would be different.

However, T'Challa is too good for the leftovers of Adam Warlock (wannabe Jesus) & Rich Rider/Nova (wannabe Peter Parker).

[Anthony Shaw]

Monica Lynne can't sing... Did you here/read her last album in between comic page panels?


Auto-tunes and duets with R. Kelly and Lil Wayne... Garbage!


If T'challa is two steps ahead of his enemies and three steps ahead of his friends Monica would be easily a ten steps behind person!


Black Panther with Storm or Monica Rambeau up the level of the game!


This is the Marvel Universe not Ashford and Simpson!


If the character Monica Lynne is in the Black Panther movie then that gives Marvel the license to cast some RnB singer featured mostly on BET and blow my "Epic Politically Charged" high!


Lose the singer Monica and get the sun powered Monica that New Jack Swing era has passed especially with Obama in the Oval Office doing it big!


Carry on...

Flex....that was awesome.....keep doing what you do.

[Kasper Cole]

i'm not placing the blame on t'challa. i'm saying he bears a responsibility in this madness and he should own up to it. there were tons of places they could have holed up in. and he let them use his capitol city even though he had been warned of a possible cataclysm for his country. that's lunacy.

It wasn't about a "possible cataclysm". The Panther god told T'Challa that the flood WOULD happen. The warning wasn't even about the flood, it was about what would happen AFTER the flood (which is what Hickman's New Avengers will be dealing with).

[Kieran_Frost]

Good points, I just want to see both sides of the coin presented. I havent read that run so now my interests is peaked.

Oh, yes, yes; you really should. It was my favourite arc of his run, and it just oozes fun. The art is so playful, the concept strong; it really is a great read (and all the characters get time to shine, and "save the day"; not just one hero rescuing his helpless team-mates).

I def think that Tchalla should have some beef with the Avengers. He make it perfectly clear that Wakanda could not be implicated in the actions and then they still brought the fight to his door. Wanda is to blame as well IMO. She teleported the Avengers back to Wakanda (instead of Kun Lun they would of been safer for the time being.) which lead to Namors attack.

I'm confident Hickman won't overlook T'Challa justified anger at the Avengers over AvX; because MANY of them share some blame (Tony, Steve, Wanda)

I'm with you, blaming anyone but Namor is bs.

It's not "just" Namor. It's Emma. It's Tony. It's Cap. It's a little bit T'challa (for getting involved in the Avengers' fight, rather than staying out; NOT for the flood). It's the entire mess of a series. Blaming ONLY Namor is letting others off the hook, and oversimplifying things. Plus... you know... I LIKE Namor! I like seeing him stay alive!

The prophecy didn't say "hey a flood might happen, but you can stop it". It said "Wakanda will be flooded during the Phoenix attack". No if's or maybe's.
There was nothing he could do about that.

2:45pm - Everything is fine in Wakanda
2:46pm - Phoenix powered Namor shows up
2:47pm - Wakanda is flooded
I have no doubt that BP has a contingency plan to stop an invasion from a normal powered Namor and his army/navy, but not even he could account for every variable.

AGREED!!!

If you're comparing it to what Hudlin did, it's not a good comparison...not only for the fact that Warren Ellis is, by far, a more intelligent, elegant writer, but the difference in nuance and the fact that Xenogenesis was not about race, but about the politics of some parts of a continent.

But even though I admit that the Wolverine dialogue in Xenogenesis was uncomfortable and dismissive of some things, he's speaking more about the politics and politicians in Africa than he is about race. And unfortunately, A LOT of what he said in that is true, yet simplistically viewed, which fits Logan's character. What he said about Mandela is true, but shows little understanding of WHY Mandela HAD to do the things he did. Though it's backed up by the quote from the speech Mandela gave about his reaction being "a calm assessment of the political situation" at the time, which was brilliant. But he said "Im just saying...there are no saints in Africa"...which again, is simplistic, but true. Unfortunately, very few can afford to be saints in Africa.

I think Ellis in that was setting up the characters in the story to offer a debate on varying views concerning a very controversial and ravaged part of the world. Logan, and all the Xmen really, were dressed down later by Doctor Crocodile concerning their ignorance about Africa and what they were trying to do there, and he especially dressed down Wolverine on his views, having had knowledge about Logan's black ops dealings with the continent in his past. I wish someone would put up that scan. I can't.

But again, it was more about a debate about the politics of a nation, not race. Hudlin entered race, but didn't hint at it, he hit you over the head with it, and made for awkward moments with characters that didn't sound right. For instance, that whole dialogue with Storm and Doom and Panther was so contrived. Since when is Storm so knee-jerk reactionary about race that she wants Victor to "finish the sentence" concerning his views on the African as a physical specimen? And since when does Victor, for that matter, talk like he's the Red Skull? And then the perfect set up for Panther to insult Victor's people by bragging about how they were charting the stars while Victor's people were living in caves. He might as well gone all X-clan on him (remember them?) and called white people "cave-dwellers" and "troglodytes". Panther, even done by Priest, is not such an insecure person that he would feel the need to even engage in petty comparisons like that. He didn't even do it when he DID fight the Red Skull. It was wrong all around for all the characters, and was as contrived and heavy-handed as a street corner 5 percenter with a copy of the Isis Papers in his hand. Even the general in the first arc at the table read like some character in a Shaft movie from the 70's. Most of it was so contrived, and so unsophisticated in it's execution. That's what i think most people saw, and what made it seem so much like a heavy-handed agenda.

Especially in comparison to how Priest did it. That scene with Panther and Cap standing at the top of a building in Brooklyn with a crowd of black people below them and the cops ready for a riot? And showing Cap hesitant to speak to the crowd, not because he's racist, but because he knows they are there to see T'Challa and he's not sure how to speak to them? Brilliant. And Panther asks him a subtle question he already knows the answer to about how many "nations" there are in this country, after stating they are Americans, so Cap should speak to them. It was intelligent, sophisticated, and VERY T'Challa. And subtly said something about race in America without feeling contrived, or using characters out of character.

Anyway, from my point of view, that's the difference.

AMAZING POST!!! And yes, Warren Ellis would write a fantastic T'Challa!

[marvell2100]

i'm not placing the blame on t'challa. i'm saying he bears a responsibility in this madness and he should own up to it. there were tons of places they could have holed up in. and he let them use his capitol city even though he had been warned of a possible cataclysm for his country. that's lunacy.

It wasn't about a "possible cataclysm". The Panther god told T'Challa that the flood WOULD happen. The warning wasn't even about the flood, it was about what would happen AFTER the flood (which is what Hickman's New Avengers will be dealing with).

In case you missed it, Kasper just explained it.

Is Scott to blame when Bastion attacks Utopia because he's helping Hope? I guess the X-Men are to blame for all those students deaths becasue they kept a school on their premises. No, the blame lies with the person or persons who attacked.

[Anthony Shaw]

WHY? Why is that so important? The great loves of most of the male characters of the Marvel universe are normal women, mainly because they ground them. Thor, Spidey, DD, Iron Man, Bruce Banner...all loved normal women. and T'challa can use some grounding. I'm not against it, but I think everyone is just looking for some super powered mate or peak human warrior to make up for the loss of Storm. And it shouldn't be how great the next woman stands up to Storm, it should be how great the love and the chemistry for the characters are.

even superman's greatest love was Lois Lane. Nobody actually think he and Wonder Woman should be together, it's contrived...and very few fans like it even now.

Well....I am through with the damsel in distress.

I want a kick-ass Queen that can take down at least 5 mortal men.

Also....Thor eneded up with Sif. DD's true love is still Electra. Iron Man is a man-whore for life. Banner is supposed to have lonely miserable nights....yet writers have blessed him with a badass baby-mama before she died, and his ex-wife is a super-powered now. I actually liked Black Cat (before they made her a hoodrat) more for Spidey than MJ. I did love it when MJ took the ball bat to the Chameleon when he tried to impersonate Peter Parker years ago. MJ is one of the few non-powered love interests I endorse.

Lois Lane, IMHO, only works when she is aware that Clark & Superman are one.

Just think about it....the concept of the non-powered love interest only really exist in movies now.

[AcesX1X]

It wasn't about a "possible cataclysm". The Panther god told T'Challa that the flood WOULD happen. The warning wasn't even about the flood, it was about what would happen AFTER the flood (which is what Hickman's New Avengers will be dealing with).

oh, well that lowers the intelligence factor in his decision even moreso. as i said, t'challa is the one who decided to paint a target on his own people's heads.

[marvell2100]

Damn....a green Wakandan Queen...that would be different.

However, T'Challa is too good for the leftovers of Adam Warlock (wannabe Jesus) & Rich Rider/Nova (wannabe Peter Parker).

Black Panther and Medusa?

[Anthony Shaw]

Black Panther and Medusa?

Naw....let Wolverine & Namor lust after other folk's wives.

Black Panther & Black Bolt = Black Kings gotta stick together.

[jabu46]

There has been some conversation about who would be Tchalla's love interest in the movie, if there ever was one.

If they were doing a Black Panther movie, I would make Nikki, Ross' boss/girlfriend in the Priest series the love interest. I'd just make her Asian.

Use Monica Lynn, or any other African American character and the movie risks being labed as a "black product". It also occurs to me that heroes usually only get ONE sidekick/helper(Batman/Robin, Lone Ranger/Tonto and Green Hornet/Kato). So Tchalla having two Dora's assisting him is overkill by movie logic.

If you are giving him a helper/sidekick, it should be Shuri (possibly pretending to be simply his driver).
I see most of the movie taking place in NYC, as Tchalla hunts his father's killer who has gone to ground there.

Which would explain Shuri's motivation for being there as well.

I don't think Shuri should be in the movie at all. I actually don't think Shuri should even exist. I liked that Panther had no brother or sister, as it isolated him more and made the brunt of all he had to face more impactful. I would have Omoro, his "Alfred" or "Jarvis" in it though. Omoro was witty and funny and a deadly old man...he'd be great in it.

With Nikki, if you would go that route, you might as well leave her white. An Asian is still a minority, and it's still not going to resonate with a mainstream audience the way a white woman would. But then again, you may piss off black fans (especially women) by giving him a white or asian love interest.

I think Monica Lynne would still work, just make it dramatic and epic and make her more witty than sassy so she doesn't come off too "round the way"...lol...and leave talk of race out of it. But have Nikki in it as she was in the Priest run: a former fling from college that works for the government now that is supposed to handle him in America, but has Ross do it. There you have two white people to appeal to a "mainstream" audience. And Ross should be played the way he was in Priest's run. His ignorance and humor would give a light tone to the heavy action and tone of the Panther's world. Spend more time in America than Wakanda, at least in the first movie, so the audience has something familiar to latch onto.

It's baiting, but you would want as many people to go see this as possible. Flex's idea of basically going "all-in" and doing Panther's movie as a "black Avatar" with racially charged politics and everyone in it being a warrior or superhuman down to his love interest, is going to turn a lot of non-black people away, and the movie will lose focus on the character due to being so overly done. Not even Obama got elected by black people alone, and the character needs to be able to shine above everyone else.

I still think Priest's run would have sold a lot better if he did not try to be too clever with it, with the "pulp fiction rewind" storytelling, and if he got as much publicity, and the opportunities for tie-ins to huge events, like Hudlin did. His first panther arc though I think is the best way to go in doing a mainstrean Panther movie.