State of Wakanda: The Black Panther Discussion

[GOD]

It's not revisionist; it's making a point that is rarely made. Nelson Mandela is a great man, and his many incredible achievements are acknowledged countless times (all the news reports about his current illness have repeated his great contributions to South Africa and the world)... but it's good to occasional mention the OTHER SIDE of the coin (which is something Warren Ellis is acknowledging here). The same way it's good so many British people admire Winston Churchill but it's ALSO important to remember his distrust and dislike of Gandhi and his possible involvement in sinking the Lusitania. Even saints have flaws that should not be swept under the rug.

Good points, I just want to see both sides of the coin presented. I havent read that run so now my interests is peaked.

I just hope Tony's involvement is mentioned too. He shouldn't be completely blameless in this, either.

I def think that Tchalla should have some beef with the Avengers. He make it perfectly clear that Wakanda could not be implicated in the actions and then they still brought the fight to his door. Wanda is to blame as well IMO. She teleported the Avengers back to Wakanda (instead of Kun Lun they would of been safer for the time being.) which lead to Namors attack.

[JaggedFel]

Still the point is should Logan be making that argument?

Well technically Wanda is too blame for the whole mess.

[RatFace]

Before T'Challa helped his friends you mean right? Let's say that they did evacuate the capitol. Who's to say that Namor wouldn't have struck where they were? Bast's warnings were pretty much generalized. with no specific time or day.

But it's always funny that some blame the flooding of Wakanda on Wakanda and T'Challa. As if Namor or Emma are just innocent people in the whole affair.

"T'Challa should have known."
"He shouldn't have harbored the Avengers."
"Namor was possessed."
"It was the Phoenix."

The truth ofthe matter is that it was Namors fault. any deaths fall on his head. The Phoenix didn't make him do it, it only gave him more power to do it. All of the P5 were acting on base desires which the Phoenix only amplified. Blaming the victims here is just way beyond ridiculous.

I'm with you, blaming anyone but Namor is bs.

[Omegastorm]

Before T'Challa helped his friends you mean right? Let's say that they did evacuate the capitol. Who's to say that Namor wouldn't have struck where they were? Bast's warnings were pretty much generalized. with no specific time or day.

But it's always funny that some blame the flooding of Wakanda on Wakanda and T'Challa. As if Namor or Emma are just innocent people in the whole affair.

"T'Challa should have known."
"He shouldn't have harbored the Avengers."
"Namor was possessed."
"It was the Phoenix."

The truth ofthe matter is that it was Namors fault. any deaths fall on his head. The Phoenix didn't make him do it, it only gave him more power to do it. All of the P5 were acting on base desires which the Phoenix only amplified. Blaming the victims here is just way beyond ridiculous.

I am not making the argument that Namor isn't culpable. Nor am I making the argument that Emma isn't in some way responsible for influencing Namor. Namor deserves all the blame for flooding and attacking wakanda. He should be fried for such. I hope that T'challa gets revenge for that. I want to see that. The evacuation isn't the flooding. They are connected but not the same thing. I can blame Namor for attacking Wakanda and asking the question should T'challa have done more in preparing his people for something that was clear to him? That can be done without blaming T'challa or saying he is culpable for Namor's actions. Namor did the attack, Emma instigated it. Namor deserves death, Emma I am not so sure. Having an idea and suggesting it (no matter how loathsome) is a weird thing to legislate.

o

[AcesX1X]

The first time Namor pulled something like this, he was captured by the Original Human Torch and ended up being put in the Electric Chair (those Golden Age stories were insane). I forget how he escaped.

he didn't escape. they electrocuted him. but his body absorbs electricity so it didn't kill him.

and t'challa does deserve his share of the blame for wakanda's flooding. he had warning from the cat god that his city would be devastated. it is nothing but high idiocy that he let the avengers launch attacks at five people with the phoenix force after that revelation. he said he didn't want to get involved bc it would make wakanda look bad. and yet? he gets involved and lets them use his kingdom as their home base. ridiculous.

or perhaps he thought, "maybe not this time?" savage land, mountain wundagore..? there were plenty of acceptable locations for them to launch attacks from, and yet t'challa allows them to do it from his city full of innocents.

[taozen]

Epting is channeling King Jaffe Joffer from Coming to America. "Is that velvet?"

[marvell2100]

Before T'Challa helped his friends you mean right? Let's say that they did evacuate the capitol. Who's to say that Namor wouldn't have struck where they were? Bast's warnings were pretty much generalized. with no specific time or day.

But it's always funny that some blame the flooding of Wakanda on Wakanda and T'Challa. As if Namor or Emma are just innocent people in the whole affair.

"T'Challa should have known."
"He shouldn't have harbored the Avengers."
"Namor was possessed."
"It was the Phoenix."

The truth ofthe matter is that it was Namors fault. any deaths fall on his head. The Phoenix didn't make him do it, it only gave him more power to do it. All of the P5 were acting on base desires which the Phoenix only amplified. Blaming the victims here is just way beyond ridiculous.

Case in point below:

he didn't escape. they electrocuted him. but his body absorbs electricity so it didn't kill him.

and t'challa does deserve his share of the blame for wakanda's flooding. he had warning from the cat god that his city would be devastated. it is nothing but high idiocy that he let the avengers launch attacks at five people with the phoenix force after that revelation. he said he didn't want to get involved bc it would make wakanda look bad. and yet? he gets involved and lets them use his kingdom as their home base. ridiculous.

or perhaps he thought, "maybe not this time?" savage land, mountain wundagore..? there were plenty of acceptable locations for them to launch attacks from, and yet t'challa allows them to do it from his city full of innocents.

[AcesX1X]

way to miss the point without adding anything to the discussion. congrats.

i didn't say namor wasn't at fault. he's the one who launched the attack. but to say t'challla is blameless on the matter is inaccurate.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

It's totally accurate.

The prophecy didn't say "hey a flood might happen, but you can stop it". It said "Wakanda will be flooded during the Phoenix attack". No if's or maybe's.

There was nothing he could do about that.

[AcesX1X]

It's totally accurate.

The prophecy didn't say "hey a flood might happen, but you can stop it". It said "Wakanda will be flooded during the Phoenix attack". No if's or maybe's.

There was nothing he could do about that.

nope, it's wildly inaccurate.

it doesn't really speak well to the intelligence of a man who would harbor the avengers and let them use wakanda as their base of operations when the phoenix five and them are actively at war. sorry.

he had a kingdom full of innocent people to think about, and he allowed the avengers to put those people between them an the x-men. there's really no defence for that.

[Habiscero]

It's totally accurate.

The prophecy didn't say "hey a flood might happen, but you can stop it". It said "Wakanda will be flooded during the Phoenix attack". No if's or maybe's.

There was nothing he could do about that.

Agreed.

2:45pm - Everything is fine in Wakanda

2:46pm - Phoenix powered Namor shows up

2:47pm - Wakanda is flooded

I have no doubt that BP has a contingency plan to stop an invasion from a normal powered Namor and his army/navy, but not even he could account for every variable.

[JaggedFel]

nope, it's wildly inaccurate.

it doesn't really speak well to the intelligence of a man who would harbor the avengers and let them use wakanda as their base of operations when the phoenix five and them are actively at war. sorry.

he had a kingdom full of innocent people to think about, and he allowed the avengers to put those people between them an the x-men. there's really no defence for that.

Actively at War? I seem to remember Scott Summers leader of the X-men frequently saying they were not at war. Maybe Namor should have listened.

Besides u would probably be shouting Mary Sue if he did counter PF Namor.

[jabu46]

[QUOTE=Booshman;16317432]Just taking a pot-shot at all of those who consistently demonized Hudlin for even hinting towards anything that had to do with race, during his BP run. Nothing more.


If you're comparing it to what Hudlin did, it's not a good comparison...not only for the fact that Warren Ellis is, by far, a more intelligent, elegant writer, but the difference in nuance and the fact that Xenogenesis was not about race, but about the politics of some parts of a continent.

But even though I admit that the Wolverine dialogue in Xenogenesis was uncomfortable and dismissive of some things, he's speaking more about the politics and politicians in Africa than he is about race. And unfortunately, A LOT of what he said in that is true, yet simplistically viewed, which fits Logan's character. What he said about Mandela is true, but shows little understanding of WHY Mandela HAD to do the things he did. Though it's backed up by the quote from the speech Mandela gave about his reaction being "a calm assessment of the political situation" at the time, which was brilliant. But he said "Im just saying...there are no saints in Africa"...which again, is simplistic, but true. Unfortunately, very few can afford to be saints in Africa.

I think Ellis in that was setting up the characters in the story to offer a debate on varying views concerning a very controversial and ravaged part of the world. Logan, and all the Xmen really, were dressed down later by Doctor Crocodile concerning their ignorance about Africa and what they were trying to do there, and he especially dressed down Wolverine on his views, having had knowledge about Logan's black ops dealings with the continent in his past. I wish someone would put up that scan. I can't.

But again, it was more about a debate about the politics of a nation, not race. Hudlin entered race, but didn't hint at it, he hit you over the head with it, and made for awkward moments with characters that didn't sound right. For instance, that whole dialogue with Storm and Doom and Panther was so contrived. Since when is Storm so knee-jerk reactionary about race that she wants Victor to "finish the sentence" concerning his views on the African as a physical specimen? And since when does Victor, for that matter, talk like he's the Red Skull? And then the perfect set up for Panther to insult Victor's people by bragging about how they were charting the stars while Victor's people were living in caves. He might as well gone all X-clan on him (remember them?) and called white people "cave-dwellers" and "troglodytes". Panther, even done by Priest, is not such an insecure person that he would feel the need to even engage in petty comparisons like that. He didn't even do it when he DID fight the Red Skull. It was wrong all around for all the characters, and was as contrived and heavy-handed as a street corner 5 percenter with a copy of the Isis Papers in his hand. Even the general in the first arc at the table read like some character in a Shaft movie from the 70's. Most of it was so contrived, and so unsophisticated in it's execution. That's what i think most people saw, and what made it seem so much like a heavy-handed agenda.

Especially in comparison to how Priest did it. That scene with Panther and Cap standing at the top of a building in Brooklyn with a crowd of black people below them and the cops ready for a riot? And showing Cap hesitant to speak to the crowd, not because he's racist, but because he knows they are there to see T'Challa and he's not sure how to speak to them? Brilliant. And Panther asks him a subtle question he already knows the answer to about how many "nations" there are in this country, after stating they are Americans, so Cap should speak to them. It was intelligent, sophisticated, and VERY T'Challa. And subtly said something about race in America without feeling contrived, or using characters out of character.

Anyway, from my point of view, that's the difference.

[Kasper Cole]

It's totally accurate.

The prophecy didn't say "hey a flood might happen, but you can stop it". It said "Wakanda will be flooded during the Phoenix attack". No if's or maybe's.

There was nothing he could do about that.

Yup, the prophecy said there WILL be Death, sickness, pain, and suffering but that it'd pale in comparison to the threat that comes next. The danger after the flood is what Bast was warning T'Challa about. Bast also noted that T'Challa would have to sacrifice things in order to bring about salvation.

[AcesX1X]

Actively at War? I seem to remember Scott Summers leader of the X-men frequently saying they were not at war. Maybe Namor should have listened..

nope. the x-men were peacefully shutting down known avengers operations without casualties before namor attacked wakanda. he only did so when the avengers captured one of theirs and held her as a pow. perhaps t'challa should have followed his own advice and not gotten wakanda involved.