We have Batwoman--why do we need Batgirl?

[nosocialize100]

I'd like to add that Batwoman appears to be more involved with the occult and more horror specific stories. Batgirl seems to simply be an extension of the Batman mythos.

[Kizmet]

Perhaps time will do that job. As the don't ask don't tell law in the U.S Military has been overturned for over a year now either Kate Kane has to age in real time or the part of her origin where she leaves West Point will have to be re-written. If they chose to age her Barbara Gordon can mature too.

I don't know why Babs' maturity should be tied to Kate's in any way. Despite the Batwoman, Batgirl thing it's not as if Kate is Babs' mentor. Even in the NuDC it seems that Babs' first outing as Batgirl happened before Kate started going out as Batwoman. There's nothing in their stories that say Kate has to be older, more experienced or more mature than Babs. Because there is nothing in their stories connecting them as anything more than two vigilantes who both operate out of Gotham.

Apparently Kate just sees herself as a woman rather than a girl and Babs doesn't.

[Bluebow]

I don't know why Babs' maturity should be tied to Kate's in any way. Despite the Batwoman, Batgirl thing it's not as if Kate is Babs' mentor. Even in the NuDC it seems that Babs' first outing as Batgirl happened before Kate started going out as Batwoman. There's nothing in their stories that say Kate has to be older, more experienced or more mature than Babs. Because there is nothing in their stories connecting them as anything more than two vigilantes who both operate out of Gotham.

Apparently Kate just sees herself as a woman rather than a girl and Babs doesn't.

No it should not, but the names themselves imply a junior senior relationship and since the Re-boot Barbara Gordon is younger than she was, while Kate Kane appears to be the same age and the one time they have met so far seems to bear out the theory that the one is junior to the other in the storyline. The power of names can be more than people think. Conan the Barbarian sounds more dangerous than Reginald the Accountant but might not be. And the name Batgirl was already in recent use and Batwoman was not.

[MajorHoy]

No it should not, but the names themselves imply a junior senior relationship . . .

Only to clueless people who never read comic books. That's like saying two people who have the same last name MUST be related, even if the last name is Smith or Jones.

[sunofdarkchild]

Only to clueless people who never read comic books. That's like saying two people who have the same last name MUST be related, even if the last name is Smith or Jones.

Well they take their name and inspiration from the same place. It's not the same thing as sharing the name Smith in the slightest. And the fact that Batman approves of both of them in and of itself creates a certain relationship. They are both official members of the batfamily.

[MajorHoy]

Well they take their name and inspiration from the same place. It's not the same thing as sharing the name Smith in the slightest. And the fact that Batman approves of both of them in and of itself creates a certain relationship. They are both official members of the batfamily.

A common connection doesn't automatically mean "a junior senior relationship ".

[Bluebow]

Only to clueless people who never read comic books. That's like saying two people who have the same last name MUST be related, even if the last name is Smith or Jones.

Presumably the people in the comic books can not read those same books and as I said earlier Barbara Gordon was created in different times when such things as calling a grown woman a girl were not regarded in the same way that they are now. I would guess that as Batgirl was both unavailable and unappealing on those grounds Batwoman was the most likely choice from alternatives such as Batlady, Lady Bat, Ms Bat etc. Also calling yourself Batwoman when you know that there is already a Batgirl is a little like trying to join the Army as a General and actually achieving it.

[LostinFandom]

I'd like to add that Batwoman appears to be more involved with the occult and more horror specific stories. Batgirl seems to simply be an extension of the Batman mythos.

Seconding this, and I'd like to add that Batgirl/Barbara is much more about connections within Gotham. Barbara is a more open person, more invested in her relationships, while Kate/Batwoman has the tendency to isolate herself, both of which create different tensions in their stories.

[Rotm]

Perhaps time will do that job. As the don't ask don't tell law in the U.S Military has been overturned for over a year now either Kate Kane has to age in real time or the part of her origin where she leaves West Point will have to be re-written. If they chose to age her Barbara Gordon can mature too.

The DADT part of her background came off hack to me from the beginning and as far as I'm concerned it was already retconned in BW 0. Kate drums out because shes a loser and an emotional wreck. I prefer it that way because its more consistent with the rest of her character in that being gay or discriminated against hasn't been mentioned once as one of her motivations.

I don't feel like Kate has to change. Babs needs to grow out of the nest and interact with characters in her own cast that arn't her father or one note wallpaper.

[tunneler]

I don't really think we need Batwoman because we already have a Batgirl. Batwoman is not really a member of the Batman family because she is not in Death of the Family and so far we have not seen her interacting with any member of the Batman family. I don't really think anyone would mourn her loss if Batwoman got killed in the next event. The sales of Batwoman also show that not many people buy Batwoman and my guess is it is in danger of being cancelled. My prediction is that, to give the next DCU event some shock and effect and gravitas, Batwoman will be killed off and Batman is going to promote Batgirl to Batwoman.

[sunofdarkchild]

I don't really think we need Batwoman because we already have a Batgirl. Batwoman is not really a member of the Batman family because she is not in Death of the Family and so far we have not seen her interacting with any member of the Batman family. I don't really think anyone would mourn her loss if Batwoman got killed in the next event. The sales of Batwoman also show that not many people buy Batwoman and my guess is it is in danger of being cancelled. My prediction is that, to give the next DCU event some shock and effect and gravitas, Batwoman will be killed off and Batman is going to promote Batgirl to Batwoman.

What sales figures have you been looking at? Batwoman is selling well by today's standards, even in the 'increased' standards of the reboot. It would have to lose 50% of its current readership to be in any danger of being cancelled for reasons of lack of sales.

[Xarcon]

I don't really think we need Batwoman because we already have a Batgirl.

Aside from the fact that they are both red-headed women, they are completely different characters

Batwoman is not really a member of the Batman family because she is not in Death of the Family and so far we have not seen her interacting with any member of the Batman family.

Batwing's not a part of the Joker story either. Not being a part of the crossover has nothing to do with being a member of the Bat-Family. Kate wears the bat symbol and was approved by Batman. It's just that Batwoman tends to do her own thing as opposed to being directly related to what Batman's doing.

I don't really think anyone would mourn her loss if Batwoman got killed in the next event.

Then you are wrong. Kate has plenty of fans and there would be outrage if she died. She's a popular character.

The sales of Batwoman also show that not many people buy Batwoman and my guess is it is in danger of being cancelled.

Wrong again. Kate's book doesn't sell Batman level numbers (almost nothing does), but it's well above the cancellation threshold.

My prediction is that, to give the next DCU event some shock and effect and gravitas, Batwoman will be killed off and Batman is going to promote Batgirl to Batwoman.

That makes absolutely no sense. Batwoman is not a big enough player in the DCU that her death would have that great of an impact on the DCU. It wouldn't be like killing Batman or Superman. Also, there's no "promotion." Batgirl and Batwoman are two different superhero mantles; Batwoman is not the next step after Batgirl.

[Agent_Dark]

The DADT part of her background came off hack to me from the beginning and as far as I'm concerned it was already retconned in BW 0. Kate drums out because shes a loser and an emotional wreck. I prefer it that way because its more consistent with the rest of her character in that being gay or discriminated against hasn't been mentioned once as one of her motivations.

wut.

Are you sure you've read Elegy? She was one of the top cadets in the academy - far from being a 'loser'. She seemed to have a fairly happy relationship with that other cadet (as in she was far from being an emotional wreck). And her motivation to become Batwoman has never been because she was discriminated against. It was because she felt a duty to serve. That's why she joined the Army in the first place. Yes she lost her way a bit after being discharged, but that was because her sense of duty had been taken away. Nothing to do with her being gay.

I dont think DADT being part of her origin ages her at all in the medium term. Sure, 20 years down the track it might date the origin story but certainly even for the next 10 years it still works. It may even add more to the character, because now she can have the option of rejoining the Army (create conflict for her sense of duty - does her duty essentially remain unknown and illegal as a vigilante or does she rejoin the Army for honourable duty?).

[Bluebow]

wut.

Are you sure you've read Elegy? She was one of the top cadets in the academy - far from being a 'loser'. She seemed to have a fairly happy relationship with that other cadet (as in she was far from being an emotional wreck). And her motivation to become Batwoman has never been because she was discriminated against. It was because she felt a duty to serve. That's why she joined the Army in the first place. Yes she lost her way a bit after being discharged, but that was because her sense of duty had been taken away. Nothing to do with her being gay.

I dont think DADT being part of her origin ages her at all in the medium term. Sure, 20 years down the track it might date the origin story but certainly even for the next 10 years it still works. It may even add more to the character, because now she can have the option of rejoining the Army (create conflict for her sense of duty - does her duty essentially remain unknown and illegal as a vigilante or does she rejoin the Army for honourable duty?).

Yes, I took that as just a way to de-rail her from her original career path as well as a quick way to establish that she already had some skills. I thought her father being in a position to provide her additional training and equipment a little too convenient though, but that has come back to bite them, but I don't think they would have planned that far ahead in the storyline. If they did, well done.

[Godlike13]

Best thing about Batwoman IMO is Beth. Don't get me wrong, Kate is cool, though at times she can be little too cool. With her personality sometimes coming off as ice, or sometimes even kind of just blank. She can be very stoic. Alice though, i just dig that chick. I think part of me is sticking with Batwoman in hopes of seeing her again. Plus the art is fantastic.