We have Batwoman--why do we need Batgirl?

[Morlock50]

You just summed up Tim Drake as he was supposed to be.

In BTAS Babs got into it by accident and decided she liked it. In The Batman she just thought Batman was cool and wanted to be like him. Both worked without being dark. In fact, I believe the current Batgirl series should be less dark. If she just wants to help, show it. There was no need to have her ever be paralyzed, and it made the book depressing where it didn't need to be. Her current motivations are tied to a much darker event than any origin story they could make for her first adventures. Take that out and all of a sudden you have a much lighter book tonewise which still has ample room to explore her motivations.

One thing to ask yourselves: if the people wanting more of a motivation from Babs also really liked the last Batgirl series, is it really dark that they're looking for?

I see your point but...

Gail HAD to address TKJ and her time in the wheelchair. Can you imagine the outcry if see had started from year 1 and the shooting never happened? It wasn't even an option to do it any other way. The fans would be even more upset then they are now.

[sunofdarkchild]

Lady Shiva (which came about later on with Cass) is still a relatively minor Bat villain, she's a little higher on the totem pole then David Cain and Cluemaster, but thats not really saying much. She is still no where near Commissioner Gordan's level of importance and general awareness. It doesn't even compare. And again, that doesn't mean thats where Babs' appeal, or popularity, came from, but it does adds a layer of dept and brings a rather strong connection. Gives he an introduction point, and some relevancy even, because a good deal of people actually know Commissioner Gordan is, and can make the connection.

And pointing out further that in various outlets she became Batgirl, a costume crimefighter, by accident, doesn't really change my point as to her motivation to fight crime, to help people like her father, her brother, or Bruce Wayne even, comes from her upbringing. She doesn't need a tragedy to be motivated to do good, in which Batgirl was just the accidently found outlet to do that.

We seem to agree that being the commissioner's daughter in and of itself dies not earn her a place in the bat-family. Where we seem to disagree is in the amount of boost it gives her to start out with. I say a character has to earn that place on their own. Regardless of their upbringings, neither of which are bad gimmicks for firging a connection to Batman, Cass and Steph both earned their places in Gotham and the bat-family by being as good characters as anyone else. Steph in particular I'd argue is central to Gotham and the bat-family just on the basis of her personality. The old Babs earned her place by 1970. The current one has not as of right now, despite being Gordon's daughter.

[Captain Jim]

Gail HAD to address TKJ and her time in the wheelchair. Can you imagine the outcry if see had started from year 1 and the shooting never happened? It wasn't even an option to do it any other way. The fans would be even more upset then they are now.

At the very least, that was the consensus when the DCnU was being developed. It's hard to say if it was an accurate assessment or not. I suspect it was one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things. If they had removed TKJ from her continuity, people would have complained and by leaving it in, people have complained. It was really a "no win" situation.

[sunofdarkchild]

I see your point but...

Gail HAD to address TKJ and her time in the wheelchair. Can you imagine the outcry if see had started from year 1 and the shooting never happened? It wasn't even an option to do it any other way. The fans would be even more upset then they are now.

I don't think so. For one it would leave the door open for her becoming Oracle down the line, even if she never became disabled. I also think the stories would have been better, changing the minds of more naysayers by this point. The outcry when Steph became Batgirl died down a great deal over the next two years because the book was good. I think a similar thing would have happened with Babs if her book was better.

The danger I see in making a lighter Babs book is in making it too similar to Steph's, which is a whole different problem.

[Brave Sir Robbin]

I pose a new question: Which is funnier?

A) The envy of fan boys that are so threatened by the artistic and commercial success of two female characters that they want to get rid of one as being redundant, OR

B) That both the books mentioned are huge success stories of the New 52 and outsell most of the lesser trash and that no matter who much internet trolls beat their chests in anger and desperation, the success of the two will keep them going strong, month by month, and relegating other lesser characters to the forgotten dust bins of history.

Barbara herself is being driven by Simone to be an upper echelon DC super hero. Batwoman is getting there but slowly. If it weren't for the "oh so great artiste Williams" being allowed to write the book's never ending arc, it would be even a bigger success. Once that thing wraps up, the book could really take off. (I am assuming that it does wrap up)

Both characters are wonderful dynamic living people who attract fans that want more than the grunting bravado of the black and white world of a lot of the comics. Simone has slowly and deliberately, but through great stories, evolved Batgirl into a wonder character. She is devoted to dad and grew up admiring his fearlessness for the public and fights crime as a superhero with all those risks because she, like dad, is driven to do justice. She sees the complexity of the world and needs to protect those who aren't able to take on the violence of crime, including the crazed Gotham psychos. But also never loses sight of the humanity of those around her and desires to care for and help as much as fight. Batwoman is also driven like her father but to serve the ideals of duty and justice. She gave up her dream of being an army officer due to her unwavering sense of honesty and honor. Unlike Babs, Kate is stone tough and not hesitant to engage the enemy with deadly force but she also is compelled to help those who are victims of greater evil. Her humanity is demonstrated in her constant desire for love and trouble in forming loving adult relationships where she can give herself to another as much as she gives herself to her cause.

These books rule. The question shouldn't be, do we need both, but why don't we get some more characters like them?

These are two awesome characters and are deservedly huge successes. They will continue to sell and be important parts of the Gotham City world. They will also serve as beacons for those who want more from their comics. Just be happy we have these books and celebrate their success.

[The Great Grape]

The outcry when Steph became Batgirl died down a great deal over the next two years because the book was good. I think a similar thing would have happened with Babs if her book was better.

Steph didn't have another persona that as many on the net clung to. Cass was also arguably being messed up before Steph took over.

[sunofdarkchild]

Steph didn't have another persona that as many on the net clung to. Cass was also arguably being messed up before Steph took over.

The outcry wasn't as great, true, but it still died down after a while. It would not have had BQM sucked. The current outcry hasn't died down all that much for the opposite reason.

[The Great Grape]

The outcry wasn't as great, true, but it still died down after a while. It would not have had BQM sucked. The current outcry hasn't died down all that much for the opposite reason.

This seems to be from solely from net diehards pov. Which isn't really accurate or fair.

I don't agree at all that Simone or her current work suck either.

[Morlock50]

This seems to be from solely from net diehards pov. Which isn't really accurate or fair.

I don't agree at all that Simone or her current work suck either.

Although I'm enjoying the book, I also don't think we've quite seen Gail's A game on this title yet. I think she's still trying to find Barbara's new voice.

[Liquid?!]

So people complain about the retconning, but then also complain that they leave the Killing Joke in continuity. My head hurts.

Brilliant post by Brave Sir Robin by the way.

[nepenthes]

Looks like we need another reminder here; stating your preference of a character or series and outlining the reasons why is perfectly fine - it's why we're here! However getting into personal, derogatory or accusational remarks, aimed at other fans, is not fine. It ruins the vibe. I've removed posts, edited posts and issued warnings here. It's a slippery slope and only takes one or two careless posts to kick off the bickering. This is a great thread so far, lets keep it that way

[myme]

The outcry wasn't as great, true, but it still died down after a while. It would not have had BQM sucked. The current outcry hasn't died down all that much for the opposite reason.

Well, it seems to be a matter of perception. What I've observed on the DC boards was a far bigger outcry about the BQM book, than what we have here on this board about Gail's book.

In my opinion, the BQM book was flawed, too silly. BQM didn't do anything good with Babs, he had no idea what to do with Oracle. Maybe DC learned from that, and that's the reason why Steph isn't allowed to be used at the moment, because of the lesson they learned from the previous BG book.

[melkorjunior]

Does BQM stand for Bryan Q. Miller? I've been considering giving his Batgirl series a read, but all I know about it is that Stephanie Brown was Batgirl in it, and some fans seem to like it, but I don't know if they're a majority or not. If you've read the series I'd be interested in hearing more about it--did Miller do something that ruined Stephanie Brown as a character as far as DC editorial is concerned? Because I've been wondering why DC seems so allergic to even acknowledging the character's existence anymore.

[TorontoFan1973]

Gail HAD to address TKJ and her time in the wheelchair. Can you imagine the outcry if see had started from year 1 and the shooting never happened? It wasn't even an option to do it any other way. The fans would be even more upset then they are now.

I think they should have used the New 52 as an opportunity to reboot Batgirl completely by having the title follow Barbara as she becomes Batgirl -- i.e. launching with a new origin story, rather than beginning the new series with her as an established character with a complex back story.

[melkorjunior]

I think they should have used the New 52 as an opportunity to reboot Batgirl completely by having the title follow Barbara as she becomes Batgirl -- i.e. launching with a new origin story, rather than beginning the new series with her as an established character with a complex back story.

I completly agree.