We have Batwoman--why do we need Batgirl?

[mrrightnow]

The name "Barbara Gordon" would likely draw blank stares from most adults who haven't read a Batman comic since they were kids. (And the version of Barbara Gordon most preferred by fans seems to have been Orale by a pretty significant margin).

On what do you base the assertion that people prefer Barbara as Oracle to Batgirl? I ask because the comic-book-buying public seems to disagree with you. Do notice how the current Batgirl series is not only outselling every other Batgirl series but also every version of Birds of Prey, which starred Oracle.

Oh, and your bit about the general public not knowing Batgirl's secret ID ... Why does that even matter? Do you think people know Green Arrow's name is Oliver Queen? And that Aquaman's real name is Arthur? No, they don't. The fact of the matter is, only VERY FEW superheroes (Superman, Batman, Hulk, Spider-Man, and maybe Robin) have secret IDs everyday people know, but people still know who the masked characters are. People KNOW the red-haired Batgirl because she is the one who made "Batgirl" mean something. There have been other Batgirls, but obviously Barbara resonnates strongest with the public. It's also obvious that you have some sour grapes concerning the character.

[melkorjunior]

Although I don't know how you can refuse to be a victim, yes you can fight back, but if a bus hits you the bus will probably come off best no matter how determined you are.

But if a mugger attacks you--which is what happened to Kate--you can refuse to be a victim by fighting him off.

But WHY does Kate still have that Batgirl-esque suit?

Although the costume looks striking with the black and red, I would have preferred it if Kate had a more practical suit. It's nice that the gauntlets can dig into metal, but it would be even nicer if they weren't bright red. I know her father said the color "doesn't pop during night missions", but that's just the writer trying to convince us that there's a logical reason Kate would wear red. I don't see any navy Seals wearing red fror their night missions.

I also would have liked it if, during the scene when Kate's father first shows her the outfit, Kate had at least questioned the practicality of a cape, instead of simply accepting it. The cape seems to be bulletproof, and to be some use as a shield, but I wish her father had mentioned that when he showed her the costume for the first time.

[kalorama]

Oh, and your bit about the general public not knowing Batgirl's secret ID ... Why does that even matter? Do you think people know Green Arrow's name is Oliver Queen? And that Aquaman's real name is Arthur? No, they don't. The fact of the matter is, only VERY FEW superheroes (Superman, Batman, Hulk, Spider-Man, and maybe Robin) have secret IDs everyday people know, but people still know who the masked characters are.

Which was exactly my point. The general public neither knows or cares about the people behind the mask when they're buying lunchboxes and t-shirts with the character's logo on it. Which makes batGRRRl4ever's assertion that

And this is who through many decades of branding recognition the general public will see her as

patently false. The general public sees Batgirl, not Barbara Gordon. Thanks for making my point for me.

It's also obvious that you have some sour grapes concerning the character.

Ah, the old "if you disagree with me you must have a problem" retort. An oldie but goodie. Sorry, but I don't eat grapes, sour or otherwise. And I have no particular emotions about Batgirl one way or the other, really. She's a character in a comic book I sometimes read. That's all. I simply happen to have a viewpoint on the character and her place in the larger pop culture landscape that happens not to conform to yours and took an opportunity to express it. I heard that the internet was a place where people did that kind of thing.

[Bluebow]

But if a mugger attacks you--which is what happened to Kate--you can refuse to be a victim by fighting him off.



Although the costume looks striking with the black and red, I would have preferred it if Kate had a more practical suit. It's nice that the gauntlets can dig into metal, but it would be even nicer if they weren't bright red. I know her father said the color "doesn't pop during night missions", but that's just the writer trying to convince us that there's a logical reason Kate would wear red. I don't see any navy Seals wearing red fror their night missions.

I also would have liked it if, during the scene when Kate's father first shows her the outfit, Kate had at least questioned the practicality of a cape, instead of simply accepting it. The cape seems to be bulletproof, and to be some use as a shield, but I wish her father had mentioned that when he showed her the costume for the first time.

She happened to be better than that mugger on that occasion. There is a story where Black Canary gets her legs broken and is captured by an assailant. She was a victim, no doubt about it, she refused to show that she was a victim but still felt it and when the opportunity came she turned the tables. it was how she dealt with all of it that made a good story, characters that refuse to lose are unrealistic, even Superman loses sometimes

[The Great Grape]

There is so much stuff being tossed around I am probably not going to bother too much.

I'll just say that the public at large does not consist solely or even largely of a relatively small group of internet posters at a few select sites. A significant portion of the public at large that has interest or retention in matters seems to be aware of the connection between Batgirl and Comm.Gordon/his daughter. Least far as I know. One can argue Barb has an unfair advantage in terms of laying broad based framework. But that can be argued about many heroes and heroines.

Honestly some have gotten way too worked up about things over time. If it truly didn't matter who Batgirl is, there probably shouldn't be so much angst over the situation. I really don't see a compelling reason for a book that is practically moving six figures every two months to be majorly changed or cancelled.

[melkorjunior]

a book that is practically moving six figures every two months...

I thought Batgirl was a monthly book? Did they just switch it to bi-monthly?

[batGRRRl4ever]

But WHY does Kate still have that Batgirl-esque suit?

I thought it would be cool if she started to use a brunette wig and to maybe wear a white or grey bat outfit instead, to give off a more ghostly vibe since her rogues gallery is mostly magically based. The hair and the lighter colored uniform would be more of a direct homage of respect towards the first Batwoman than continuing to copy off of Batgirl, IMO.

I'll just say that the public at large does not consist solely or even largely of a relatively small group of internet posters at a few select sites.

Honestly some have gotten way too worked up about things over time. If it truly didn't matter who Batgirl is, there probably shouldn't be so much angst over the situation. I really don't see a compelling reason for a book that is practically moving six figures every two months to be majorly changed or cancelled.

Yeah, it's amazing how "loud" some on the internet can be, given our REALLY small numbers on posting boards. And also it shows that emotions are running high because of OTHER character properties that are NOT the current Bab's/Batgirl title from Pre-Flashpoint, as this title is outselling Batwoman, so there is no LOGICAL reason to want to cancel it.

[Bluebow]

Yeah, it's amazing how "loud" some on the internet can be, given our REALLY small numbers on posting boards. And also it shows that emotions are running high because of OTHER character properties that are NOT the current Bab's/Batgirl title from Pre-Flashpoint, as this title is outselling Batwoman, so there is no LOGICAL reason to want to cancel it.[/QUOTE]

I know I have gone off the subject as much as anybody, but I took the question to mean why do we need both characters and not why both comics, I have no problem with both existing as long as one does not negatively affect the other in character development.

[Whip Whirlwind]

I thought it would be cool if she started to use a brunette wig and to maybe wear a white or grey bat outfit instead, to give off a more ghostly vibe since her rogues gallery is mostly magically based. The hair and the lighter colored uniform would be more of a direct homage of respect towards the first Batwoman than continuing to copy off of Batgirl, IMO.

I don't think that would be as visually striking though. I wouldn't mind the uniform becoming more functional, but Kate definitely rocks the black and red.

Yeah, it's amazing how "loud" some on the internet can be, given our REALLY small numbers on posting boards. And also it shows that emotions are running high because of OTHER character properties that are NOT the current Bab's/Batgirl title from Pre-Flashpoint, as this title is outselling Batwoman, so there is no LOGICAL reason to want to cancel it.

I have my issues with some decisions made for the character, but I agree that there's no logical reason to cancel it. It sells well, it's fans like it. That's really all that needs to be said.

[The Great Grape]

I thought Batgirl was a monthly book? Did they just switch it to bi-monthly?

Oh, it is a monthly. I meant selling 100,000 total copies when combining two consecutive issues. Which it does or usually almost does if you combined back to back (non-same) issues.

[Morlock50]

I think I hear you saying you need a dark reason/origin to turn you on to the character. Not every reader needs or likes the dark origin born out of loss schtick. Some of us like that some heroes become heroes because they simply realize they can do good as an inspirational figure. Not EVERY hero needs to be born out of something dark.

The NEW 52 Batgirl: Year One still needs to eventually get fleshed out some in future flashbacks by the current writer, but her secondary origin was dark enough with the Joker for her to turn from a hero just because she had the goods to do good, to an avenger of victims FOR victims.

I agree with this. Does every character need something bad happen to them in their childhood to become a hero? What if they just want to help?

[Morlock50]

[QUOTE=ngroove;16217139]

(And the version of Barbara Gordon most preferred by fans seems to have been Orale by a pretty significant margin).

"ORACLE IS BORING AS HELL!!!!!"is all I shall say to you.

Oracle was a great minor character who would never been able to carry a book on her own.

[sunofdarkchild]

I agree with this. Does every character need something bad happen to them in their childhood to become a hero? What if they just want to help?

You just summed up Tim Drake as he was supposed to be.

In BTAS Babs got into it by accident and decided she liked it. In The Batman she just thought Batman was cool and wanted to be like him. Both worked without being dark. In fact, I believe the current Batgirl series should be less dark. If she just wants to help, show it. There was no need to have her ever be paralyzed, and it made the book depressing where it didn't need to be. Her current motivations are tied to a much darker event than any origin story they could make for her first adventures. Take that out and all of a sudden you have a much lighter book tonewise which still has ample room to explore her motivations.

One thing to ask yourselves: if the people wanting more of a motivation from Babs also really liked the last Batgirl series, is it really dark that they're looking for?

[Godlike13]

Again. Cassandra Cain's mother was Lady freaking Shiva. Since you've questioned whether I've read about Babs, I'll question whether you read Cass, or Steph for that matter. If you're going to hold Magpie being someone's mother against a kid, make sure Bane isn't the father first.

Most of Babs' origin stories involve her accidentily getting into the vigilante business, not planning to do so. Whether she's at a crashed costume party, studying to become a cop (following in her father's footsteps but not wanting to be a vigilante) when people break into police headquarters, trying to prove her father's innocence by pretending to be Batman at a rally but with no intention of actually fighting anyone, ect. If simply being Gordon's daughter was enough of a motivation, we'd see more origins where her father's proffession was the motivating factor. Even in stories where she does plan from the start to be a vigilante her father oftedoesn't always have anything to do with her decision, like how in The Batman her only motivation was that she thought Batman was cool.

The reasons Babs is a popular character who has earned a place in the bat-mythos are complex, but being Jim Gordon's daughter is very, very low on the list. Her popularity and her status have much, much more to do with her own strengths than her father's. Otherwise Helena Wayne would be the main 'bat-child/sidekick' as the child of Bruce and Selina.

Lady Shiva (which came about later on with Cass) is still a relatively minor Bat villain, she's a little higher on the totem pole then David Cain and Cluemaster, but thats not really saying much. She is still no where near Commissioner Gordan's level of importance and general awareness. It still doesn't even compare. And again, that doesn't mean thats where Babs' appeal, or popularity, came from, but it does adds a layer of dept and brings a rather strong connection. Gives he an introduction point, and some relevancy even, because a good deal of people actually know who Commissioner Gordan is, and can make the connection.

And pointing out further that in various outlets she became Batgirl, a costume crimefighter, by accident, doesn't really change my point as to her motivation to fight crime, to help people like her father, her brother, or Bruce Wayne even, comes from her upbringing. She doesn't need a tragedy, or bad parents, to be motivated to do good, in which Batgirl was just the accidently found outlet to do that.

[The Great Grape]

One thing to ask yourselves: if the people wanting more of a motivation from Babs also really liked the last Batgirl series, is it really dark that they're looking for?

Not necessarily. But rather, it could be a reshuffled to one's liking Batgirl/Bat reality that may motivate. Whatever path is necessary to achieve such would possibly suffice to some who aren't supporters of what is current, I suspect. That's my not applying it to everyone read on it anyway.