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  1. #91
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Really? Because that seems to be the way things are 99% of the time.
    Stephanie is partially responsible for Cassandara's initial disappearance because while she was Batgirl there was no place for Cass until she was reinvented as Black Bat.
    Going by what Didio said DC's thinking was 'anyone but Cass' and the decision to use Steph was last minute because they couldn't bring themselves to take Oracle out of the picture at the time. Granted I don't trust anything Didio says about why DC does anything, so it could be they really did plan to use Steph to sideline Cass, and if they cared so much about Oracle why make the jump just two years later? There was always a place for Cass, they just didn't use it, like they aren't using it for either character now.

  2. #92
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    That doesn't seem to be the case at all, she left West Point because she chose to be true to herself and she doesn't seem to blame the other woman for that, nor does she seem to blame her cousin for being ensnared by the DEO.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    That doesn't seem to be the case at all, she left West Point because she chose to be true to herself and she doesn't seem to blame the other woman for that, nor does she seem to blame her cousin for being ensnared by the DEO.
    I did not say that she blamed them at all, just that it shifts the error, mistake or misjudgement what ever you might call it from her to somebody else. A character should make some mistakes themselves not just take responsibility for those of others.

  4. #94
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I don't see a shift though, especially not in the case of being drummed out of West Point; that was on her and she owned up to it completely.

  5. #95
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Going by what Didio said DC's thinking was 'anyone but Cass' and the decision to use Steph was last minute because they couldn't bring themselves to take Oracle out of the picture at the time. Granted I don't trust anything Didio says about why DC does anything, so it could be they really did plan to use Steph to sideline Cass, and if they cared so much about Oracle why make the jump just two years later? There was always a place for Cass, they just didn't use it, like they aren't using it for either character now.
    Basically yes.
    DC considered a wide number of characters to be Batgirl back in '09, but they ended up with Steph. The reason behind my original statement was a poster blaming Barbara's book for the loss of Cassandra when in reality, the loss of Cass happened long before Babs put the cowl back on.

  6. #96

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    The key issue here is that the very existence of a Barbara Gordon Batgirl automatically renders at least two far superior characters obsolete: Barbara as Oracle and either Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown (or Bette Kane, for that matter) as Batgirl. Furthermore, the similarities to Kate Kane create a redundancy that would not by there if Kate were to coexist with either Cass, Steph, or Bette (who would logical to pair with Batwoman) as Batgirl. To make the characters less redundant, DC has de-aged Barbara and drastically altered to the point of being all but unrecognizeable to fans of the character from her days as Oracle, or even her original tenure as Batgirl. The only value is one of nostalgia, or one for new readers who know Barbara as Batgirl from one of the animated programs (which depicted a much younger Barbara Batgirl than she ever was in the comics).

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    DC considered a wide number of characters to be Batgirl back in '09, but they ended up with Steph. The reason behind my original statement was a poster blaming Barbara's book for the loss of Cassandra when in reality, the loss of Cass happened long before Babs put the cowl back on.
    DC decided in 2009 that Cassandra was no longer a viable Batgirl, probably a combination of the poor-selling Beechen mini, most public recognition of Batgirl as Barbara Gordon or at least as a white girl, and a large preference among DC's upper management for a Barbara Gordon Batgirl. DC put Cass out of commission with the plan to launch a new Batgirl ongoing starring Barbara in June '09 with the rest of the "Batman Reborn" relaunch. They went as far as cancelling Birds of Prey after 127 issues, publishing an ominously titled miniseries called Oracle: The Cure, and even cancelling the planned Geoff Johns/JG Jones All-Star Batgirl before it was even published because such a project would now be redundant. Then, Gail Simone voluntarily backed away as writer because she couldn't get behind the book's premise and DC decided that Barbara may be better as Oracle after all. So, a new Batgirl book was thrown together at the last minute with Stephanie Brown and that was delayed a few months behind the rest of the Batman Reborn relaunch. It also featured Barbara in a major role to keep her in the spotlight and continue the plot threads from Oracle: The Cure, at least until BOP was eventually relaunched the next year.

    The truth here is that Cass was benched long before Steph was even considered to be Batgirl, back when DC was planning to replace her with Barbara. Furthermore, Barbara's ultimate Batgirl book in 2011 caused Cass to be benched for a second time and quite possibly retconned altogether, just after she had returned to the spotlight as Blackbat, appearing in Batman: The Gates of Gotham and Red Robin and showing a lot of potential to continue at least as a major supporting character, if not in back her own book.
    DC: Wonder Woman
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  7. #97
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    Basically yes.
    DC considered a wide number of characters to be Batgirl back in '09, but they ended up with Steph. The reason behind my original statement was a poster blaming Barbara's book for the loss of Cassandra when in reality, the loss of Cass happened long before Babs put the cowl back on.
    It did. The question now though is why are she and Steph taboo. Even after Steph put on the cowl Cass was brought up a lot and made appearences, in flashbacks or for real Red Robin. There was no imbargo on her, and her presence could be felt. Now her name can't even be mentioned despite big name writers wanting to use her. That change is suspiscious.

  8. #98
    Veteran Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    DC decided in 2009 that Cassandra was no longer a viable Batgirl, probably a combination of the poor-selling Beechen mini, most public recognition of Batgirl as Barbara Gordon or at least as a white girl, and a large preference among DC's upper management for a Barbara Gordon Batgirl. DC put Cass out of commission with the plan to launch a new Batgirl ongoing starring Barbara in June '09 with the rest of the "Batman Reborn" relaunch. They went as far as cancelling Birds of Prey after 127 issues, publishing an ominously titled miniseries called Oracle: The Cure, and even cancelling the planned Geoff Johns/JG Jones All-Star Batgirl before it was even published because such a project would now be redundant. Then, Gail Simone voluntarily backed away as writer because she couldn't get behind the book's premise and DC decided that Barbara may be better as Oracle after all. So, a new Batgirl book was thrown together at the last minute with Stephanie Brown and that was delayed a few months behind the rest of the Batman Reborn relaunch. It also featured Barbara in a major role to keep her in the spotlight and continue the plot threads from Oracle: The Cure, at least until BOP was eventually relaunched the next year.

    The truth here is that Cass was benched long before Steph was even considered to be Batgirl, back when DC was planning to replace her with Barbara. Furthermore, Barbara's ultimate Batgirl book in 2011 caused Cass to be benched for a second time and quite possibly retconned altogether, just after she had returned to the spotlight as Blackbat, appearing in Batman: The Gates of Gotham and Red Robin and showing a lot of potential to continue at least as a major supporting character, if not in back her own book.
    I didn't know all those details behind the Batgirl problems with Batman Reborn. I can't believe they scrapped the All-Star Batgirl project for it.

  9. #99
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    All Star Batgirl. For some reason I think this is the first time I'm hearing about it.

    As long as Frank Miller wouldn't be involved that sounds like it could have been the perfect Babs-as-Batgirl series. Early days when there was no TKJ.

    Though there come the double standards again. Why can we have 4+ titles starring Batman, an All Star Batman and Robin, but an All Star Babs is too much when there's a 'current' Babs series?
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 11-26-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #100

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    Given Johns is doing Batman Earth One and his first volume already set up the beginning of Barbara becoming Batgirl, I'm sure we'll see some of his ideas for All Star Batgirl in the later volumes.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    The truth here is that Cass was benched long before Steph was even considered to be Batgirl, back when DC was planning to replace her with Barbara. Furthermore, Barbara's ultimate Batgirl book in 2011 caused Cass to be benched for a second time and quite possibly retconned altogether, just after she had returned to the spotlight as Blackbat, appearing in Batman: The Gates of Gotham and Red Robin and showing a lot of potential to continue at least as a major supporting character, if not in back her own book.

    I think her showing up as Black Bat was allowed because the higher-ups at DC knew they would reboot soon and so it wouldn't matter anyway after that.

  12. #102
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I don't see a shift though, especially not in the case of being drummed out of West Point; that was on her and she owned up to it completely.
    As I recall she did ask if anyone else was up on the same charges and was informed that this was not the case and as she could not have broke this rule on her own, the implication that the other party could have ratted her out to save herself is there and it informed the readers as to how noble and principled Kate Kane would be by resigning on the spot without pressing this point.

  13. #103
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    The key issue here is that the very existence of a Barbara Gordon Batgirl automatically renders at least two far superior characters obsolete: Barbara as Oracle....(or Bette Kane, for that matter) as Batgirl.
    The first is pure opinion based upon personal taste in character, and the second, really? Your trying to prop up the original stalker elf from the late 50's/early 60's as a viable alternative to, well, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    Furthermore, the similarities to Kate Kane create a redundancy....
    Um, the redundancy was created when Batwoman II instead of emulating the original who had brunette hair and a yellow outfit, instead copied BATGIRL'S look with red hair and an unused BATGIRL uniform that hadn't seen the light of day. THERE'S your redundancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    To make the characters less redundant, DC has de-aged Barbara and drastically altered to the point of being all but unrecognizeable to fans of the character from her days as Oracle, or even her original tenure as Batgirl.
    As others have stated, Barbara was put back in the cowl and her primary identity of Batgirl because she's too well branded and identified as such. DC knows this is where the money is at in merchandising and sales. As to recognizability, I recognize Batgirl just fine and I've been reading her since the early 1970's. As to any other future development in character, as Batgirl, one merely has to be patient as writer Gail Simone is taking her time with developing Barbara Gordon the Dominoed Daredoll known as Batgirl slowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brack360 View Post
    The only value is one of nostalgia....
    Like it or not, many if not most of the readers of the Batgirl title are attracted to it on it's face, not because of some "nostalgia". We aren't being "tricked" into reading it for any reason, we LIKE IT, as hard as that is to fathom to some.

    As I've stated more than once, as long as the market can and will support both, then let it. Why do some posters want to keep tearing down the "other girl"? Is this some kind of sorority mentality where there can only be one alpha-female to rule the roost? The MORE female titles out there the BETTER.

    (Although it WOULD be better if Batwoman II were to go back to her original brown hair, or even get a costume make-over and honor the actual original and go full brunette while in costume so she stops being a redundant copy of Batgirl, IMO)
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  14. #104
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Why can we have 4+ titles starring Batman, an All Star Batman and Robin, but an All Star Babs is too much when there's a 'current' Babs series?
    You can currently read Batgirl in the solo title, Birds Of Prey, and alternate reality Ame-Comi Girls. That's THREE ongoing titles.
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  15. #105
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    All Star Batgirl. For some reason I think this is the first time I'm hearing about it.

    As long as Frank Miller wouldn't be involved that sounds like it could have been the perfect Babs-as-Batgirl series. Early days when there was no TKJ.

    Though there come the double standards again. Why can we have 4+ titles starring Batman, an All Star Batman and Robin, but an All Star Babs is too much when there's a 'current' Babs series?
    I don't think there is a chance of multiple Batgirls appearing in the same book until Barbara Gordon is allowed to mature enough to act as the mentor figure and I don't see that happening in the near future.

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