We have Batwoman--why do we need Batgirl?

[Lemurion]

I didn't miss it. I choose what I wanted to reply to. I'm tired of making the following arguement.

So Dick should be the only Robin in comics as well. He's much, much more famous as Robin than as Nightwing or Batman, and he's the only Robin who has any recognition outside of people who read comics regularly. Maybe Tim as the guy Joker tortured. When they killed Jason a heck of a lot of people who heard about it honestly thought they had killed Dick. And why bother with yet another new Green Lantern when Hal Jordan and John Stewart are the ones people know. Why do it only with Batgirl?

And who in the general public thinks only Barbara Gordon should be Batgirl? They were fine with a nobody kid becoming Batman for a successful cartoon series. Did Babs, without a single series to call her own for 20 years, set that high a standard before TKJ that she became the only character in the bat-verse that could never be replaced?

Yes. From a sales standpoint it seems Babs sells better, not taking into account many counterfactuals. The way DC has gone about it is simply wildly inconsistent.

DC's actually not all that inconsistent if one works from the standpoint that different characters require different treatments.

I also think you misunderstood my use of "should" in my last post. I meant that from the perspective of the general public, there is no reason to replace Babs. Why spend the time and money on rebranding the character when there is a perfectly usable one that has been the face of the brand for decades?

Outside of comics, Babs is the default, so why change things?

The only counter-argument I've seen is that people think she is more developed as Oracle, but many people who hold that opinion do not seem to be willing to acknowledge that it is possible to tell good stories with any and all characters who have used the Batgirl name; and that includes Babs.

No one has been able to provide a compelling reason why Babs should not be Batgirl. They have lots of reasons why they would prefer someone else (most of which are valid), but no compelling ones why she should not be Batgirl.

[Aquacatlungfish]

He's not Jason Todd at all. It's the people who keep thinking so that keep screwing up the character's voice.

He's like the post-crisis idea of Jason being a Robin who challenges Batman and is darker than Batman done right. But he does have a completely different backstory and motivations vs Jason who was just this annoying brat as Robin and I had no idea why Batman wanted him.

[GoldStarz]

No one has been able to provide a compelling reason why Babs should not be Batgirl. They have lots of reasons why they would prefer someone else (most of which are valid), but no compelling ones why she should not be Batgirl.

Yes we have saying that Barabara's more developed as Oracle recursively means Barbara's less developed as Batgirl. This applies to saying why the others are better to, since saying Cass is more compelling and that Steph relates better to the younger demographic than Babs is saying that Babs is less compelling than Cass and doesn't relate to the younger demographic as much as Steph. This isn't even Debate 101, this is basic English.

[Godlike13]

Yes we have saying that Barabara's more developed as Oracle recursively means Barbara's less developed as Batgirl. This applies to saying why the others are better to, since saying Cass is more compelling and that Steph relates better to the younger demographic than Babs is saying that Babs is less compelling than Cass and doesn't relate to the younger demographic as much as Steph. This isn't even Debate 101, this is basic English.

But non of that is actually true (and what i mean by that is there is no real backing to support either claim), nor is it not really just more reasons why one would prefer another, besides maybe that Barabara was more developed as Oracle. And even that isn't really a compelling reason why Babs should not be Batgirl, given that while Oracle might have be more developed in the comics, Batgirl remained the bigger property, and was more developed outside of the comic books.

[Personamanx]

Both books are kind of mediocre.

[GoldStarz]

But non of that is actually true (and what i mean by that is there is no real backing to support either claim), nor is it not really just more reasons why one would prefer another, besides maybe that Barabara was more developed as Oracle. And even that isn't really a compelling reason why Babs should not be Batgirl, given that while Oracle might have be more developed in the comics, Batgirl remained the bigger property, and was more developed outside of the comic books.

1. Cass had almost as many readers as Babs at this time without gimmicks while the market was declining

2. Do you have any idea how many people on tumblr I hear tell me that Stephanie Brown's Batgirl series was the first comic the ever read? I have more than enough evidence for that.

3. So why not have a separate Batgirl and Oracle, you can capitalize on Stephanie or Cass or new!Batgirl while Babs still remains as Oracle.

3A. Assuming you mean that Babs was the Batgirl in all the animated series, I really have to scoff at that considering how wildly different several versions are from each other let alone from the comics version of how Babs was portrayed.

[Godlike13]

1. Cass had almost as many readers as Babs at this time without gimmicks while the market was declining

Cass had almost as many readers as Babs does now about 10 years ago, but then fizzled out. Ultimately losing the job to Stephanie Brown because of declining interest. At best u can make an argument that Cass is as compelling because 10 years ago, give or take, she had almost as many readers as Babs does now, but that is a very weak argument quite frankly.

2. Do you have any idea how many people on tumblr I hear tell me that Stephanie Brown's Batgirl series was the first comic the ever read? I have more than enough evidence for that.

Ya, thats hearsay. Internet hearsay even. Thats a little more than nothing quite frankly, sorry.

3. So why not have a separate Batgirl and Oracle, you can capitalize on Stephanie or Cass or new!Batgirl while Babs still remains as Oracle.

They'd rather capitalize on Babs as Batgirl, they see more worth (interest) in that at this time. I mean they had tried capitalizing on Stephanie, and befor Cass, as new Batgirls while Babs still remains as Oracle, and evidently were not happy with the results, or don't see as much worth (interest) in it.

3A. Assuming you mean that Babs was the Batgirl in all the animated series, I really have to scoff at that considering how wildly different several versions are from each other let alone from the comics version of how Babs was portrayed.

Animated series, tv show, t-shrts. 90% Babs outside of comics is as Batgirl. In some form or another.

[The Great Grape]

Ya, thats hearsay. Internet hearsay even. Thats a little more than nothing quite frankly, sorry.

Not to mention that Simone gave a quality answer addressing tumblr already. And more than once at that.

[Lemurion]

Yes we have saying that Barabara's more developed as Oracle recursively means Barbara's less developed as Batgirl. This applies to saying why the others are better to, since saying Cass is more compelling and that Steph relates better to the younger demographic than Babs is saying that Babs is less compelling than Cass and doesn't relate to the younger demographic as much as Steph. This isn't even Debate 101, this is basic English.

I think you're arguing from your conclusions rather than to them.

All DC characters are less developed in the current universe than in the previous iteration of the DCU. This would apply to Cass and Steph just as much as Babs, so that argument is a wash. There's also the counterargument that by having Babs be someone who has recovered from a debilitating injury, the new paradigm allows her to develop in a different way, bringing something new to the character.

As for your statement that Cass is more compelling than Babs, all I see there is an assertion, with no evidence to back it up. Cass is an interesting character and well-developed, but Babs' ties to Commissioner Gordon give her an integral connection to the mythos that Cass lacks. Babs is a part of the "Matter of Gotham," in a way that none of the other Batgirls are. Cass Cain could be a well-developed and interesting character with no connection to the Bat-family at all. Barbara Gordon is automatically connected to the Bat-Universe.

As for Steph relating to the younger generation, the more important question is which one relates to the comics-buying generation more? On that I think the jury is still out.

I thoroughly enjoyed Steph's Batgirl series, and would still be reading it if they hadn't done the relaunch. That doesn't mean that I don't see why they chose Babs, and that choosing to go with Barbara Gordon was not a perfectly valid and reasonable choice, given the overall plan.

[Blacksun]

Cass had almost as many readers as Babs does now about 10 years ago, but then fizzled out. Ultimately losing the job to Stephanie Brown because of declining interest. At best u can make an argument that Cass is as compelling because 10 years ago, give or take, she had almost as many readers as Babs does now, but that is a very weak argument quite frankly.

Cass book was cancelled because they wanted to launch the Batwoman title. So after cancelation they made a Cass Mini with adam beechen, that was the "dead" of the character. So they had to go with a different Batgirl, so Stephanie at time was the best solution. and c'mon Barbara had a big rebot NEW 52, with ads in TV. I think the comparation is pretty fair.

[Ed Sizzers]

Because the more hot women in tight outfits kicking-ass in comics, the better.

Simples.

[mattymoron]

The only thing I don't like about Barbara's book is that we've lost Cassandra Cain (my favorite Batgirl) and Stephanie Brown. Hopefully they'll show up sometime soon.

I'm reading Batwoman and Batgirl, but the supernatural angle in Batwoman isn't really clicking with me for some reason. I really like most of the other Supernatural books, so I'm not really sure what it is. Not a bad book, just not one of my favorites.

[The_Greatest_Username]

Losing Cass was more of Steph's fault than Barbara's.

[shark]

Losing Cass was more of Steph's fault than Barbara's.

Cass had been blacklisted way before Steph was even considered as Batgirl.

Besides, they were going to make Barbara (and Misfit) Batgirl and changed their minds at the last second.

[Bluebow]

The thing I find to be an irritant when reading Batwoman is everyone she encounters with the exception of Agent Chase seem to instantly become a member of her fanclub, from Batman who is not usually impressed by anyone new trying to be a hero, then Barbara Gordon who also usually has issues with other women wearing a bat costume, at least one villain has tried to recruit her and now Wonder Woman is comparing herself unflatteringly to her. No one is 100% admired like that not even Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman, they all have their detractors.