Did DC really needed a reboot?

[Zeeguy91]

...and still stabilizing 14 issues later? <_<

And of course some fans quit; is that REALLY up for discussion? Have fans quit since? OF COURSE. Are things still dropping and dropping? OF COURSE. Is everything but those top lot doing average or lower? OF COURSE. Will this top lot be average this time next year? MOST LIKELY.

I know DC cancelled titles all the time BEFORE, but they're going crazy this time. Those top titles keep dropping and dropping and all that's being added to bump sales is titles they have ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH IN. People are realizing these new wave titles have nearly no chance of sticking; so much has been thrown at the wall, the wall has crumbled and crashed. Even family titles that aren't the main title are doing average (how are Green Lantern ones doing worse? ON LESS ISSUES? NOTE: not talking about main title, family tie-ins I'm on about).

Most titles are still riding off their "advertised relaunch 1s". That's fine, but it's artificial and not stable. And replacement titles are being shown to not be "sticking". I'd say Threshold may stick (GL-related), but what hope even in that context does it have when other GL family is falling? JLA will be hit and miss. Could go big or could tank. Wave before, Batman INC was the only sticker, but even though that did good sales, it didn't do what it should have due to obvious reasons.

They're still in the same situation as they were pre-reboot. Just they're slightly ahead in sales (on SOME comics), which isn't staying. They did nothing to stabilize their business longterm, just give it a boost by buzz, while ultimately destabilizing their in-comic story structure and fan base. Face it; the in-comic universe structure was finally stable. Now it's balls to the wall all over the place again. There were bad issues/stories, but there are now. there were bad selling series, but there are now. All easily correctible. Look at them now; a story is bad they simply bring new writers in. Why did that not occur to them before...? Bad selling titles with no hope get cancelled. They were given more chance before. Why? To finish a story off and show faith to the customer/fan. Do we get that courtesy now? Not as much, it's not treating well for the fan base.

^Face it, the real seller of the NU52 was advertising and the buzz/relaunched number 1s and new fresh story arcs. The reboot history nuke barely even factors in. The amount of readers the history nuke added probably accounts to less new customers than the history nuke caused it to lose. Marvel is proving this. DC cut it's arms off to stop the infection spreading, but then forgot to patch the stubs up and is now slowly bleeding to death.

I'd say that you need to check your numbers. As recent as September 2012, which is the most recent I found, titles like Aquaman and Earth 2 were outselling titles like Amazing Spider-Man, which had historically dominated the sales charts. In fact, the top 10 was comprised almost entirely of DC titles, with only AvX taking the top spot. Not only that, but some titles, like Wonder Woman, Batgirl, and GLC experienced a JUMP in sales numbers.

All your doing is proving that you didn't do any research into the sales numbers and are making things up.

[Zeeguy91]

Fine. So explain to me how the "defining elements" of the JSA are still there-because to me, a character is defined by their history and character development, not by superficial characteristics like name and powers and as far as I can see, the JSA have lost all of theirs.

Okay, fine. Then give me some defining story lines that not only rocked the JSA but also defines them in the wider context of the DCU. Stories that weren't just important to people who read JSA, but also defined them in the eyes of people who had never read JSA. Because what I remember of the JSA, aside from the occasional team-ups with the League Pre-Crisis, is that they would show their faces in large DCU events like Final Night and Infinite Crisis for, like 5 minutes, and then they'd fade into the background again. Hell, even in Infinite Crisis, the JSAers take a backseat to Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman and the whole story was about Golden Age Superman trying to recreate Earth 2. You'd think they'd be more invested.

Here, let me give you an example. Although, I've never really read X-Men, I'm still familiar with the core stories, most famously the Dark Phoenix Saga. Give a story like that that centers around the JSA.

And then, also explain to me how those stories can't be reproduced.

Personality and history, I'd say. And a person's experiences and how they react to them shape their personality.

Its funny how you're now agreeing with someone who says that events don't define characters when you point out history as a defining characteristic. After all, what is history except for a string of events that someone goes through? Some events are important, some define the character. Others...not so much. I can think of several events in my life that I could've done without and I would've still emerged the same person I am today.

And, by your reasoning, every time that DC ever published a new origin story for one of their characters, say Superman (from John Byrne's Man of Steel to Mark Waid's Birthright to Geoff Johns' Secret Origin), they were in fact creating totally different characters, none of which were the "real Superman." And yet, each of these stories spent time being the canon origin of Superman...

The fact is that as long as the stories and characters meet the core requirements of the mythology, they can still be considered legitimate.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

I'd say that you need to check your numbers. As recent as September 2012, which is the most recent I found, titles like Aquaman and Earth 2 were outselling titles like Amazing Spider-Man, which had historically dominated the sales charts. In fact, the top 10 was comprised almost entirely of DC titles, with only AvX taking the top spot. Not only that, but some titles, like Wonder Woman, Batgirl, and GLC experienced a JUMP in sales numbers.

All your doing is proving that you didn't do any research into the sales numbers and are making things up.

As of October 2012, Earth 2, Green Lantern and Justice League are the only non-Batman DC ongoings outselling Spider-man.

EDIT: Forgot Action Comics.

[Crisis]

Fine. So explain to me how the "defining elements" of the JSA are still there-because to me, a character is defined by their history and character development, not by superficial characteristics like name and powers and as far as I can see, the JSA have lost all of theirs.

well since you dont actually read Earth 2 it would be a moot point to try to do that.

[tony ingram]

Okay, fine. Then give me some defining story lines that not only rocked the JSA but also defines them in the wider context of the DCU. Stories that weren't just important to people who read JSA, but also defined them in the eyes of people who had never read JSA

...and here is where this post stops, for me. Because I'm not interested in what people who never read the JSA thought of them. The history was important to JSA fans. That's what matters.

[Sir_i4got]

...and here is where this post stops, for me. Because I'm not interested in what people who never read the JSA thought of them. The history was important to JSA fans. That's what matters.

If people who have never read them are not interested because they percieve them as boring or weak characters then that opinion is not one you can sweep away. You need to always attract readers. In days when comes sell 40000 you ALWAYS need new readers.Comics are dying, it may take another 10-20 years but as costs increase and readership drops then you have to do everything you can.
Gone are the days when being good is simply enough. Look at Batwing, I vampire etc etc All fantastic all dead in the water.

[tony ingram]

If people who have never read them are not interested because they percieve them as boring or weak characters then that opinion is not one you can sweep away. You need to always attract readers. In days when comes sell 40000 you ALWAYS need new readers.Comics are dying, it may take another 10-20 years but as costs increase and readership drops then you have to do everything you can.
Gone are the days when being good is simply enough. Look at Batwing, I vampire etc etc All fantastic all dead in the water.

Comics aren't dying. Only mainstrram American superhero comics are. Fortunately, some of us don't limit ourselves to just them. My priorities are evidently not the same as DC's.

[Master X]

I'd say that you need to check your numbers. As recent as September 2012, which is the most recent I found, titles like Aquaman and Earth 2 were outselling titles like Amazing Spider-Man, which had historically dominated the sales charts. In fact, the top 10 was comprised almost entirely of DC titles, with only AvX taking the top spot. Not only that, but some titles, like Wonder Woman, Batgirl, and GLC experienced a JUMP in sales numbers.

All your doing is proving that you didn't do any research into the sales numbers and are making things up.

Again, you're comparing newly launched titles on issue 14 to titles that are about to hit 700. Call me again when Spiderman relaunches and I'll give unfair comparison to Spiderman NOW and Aquaman52 like you the unfair comparison you just did.

[Buried Alien]

The Post-COIE reboot gave DC a nice jumpstart, but the way DC adjusted its continuity was accomplished with meat-cleaver clumsiness rather than surgical precision.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Zeeguy91]

...and here is where this post stops, for me. Because I'm not interested in what people who never read the JSA thought of them. The history was important to JSA fans. That's what matters.

Apparently, you just missed the entire point of my question. Or, maybe I can take that to mean that you don't have an answer....

Here, lemme rephrase. Give me a story that is utterly and completely vital to the mythology of the JSA. Something that any fan would point to and say "this, this is a must read for any JSA fan or anyone looking to get into JSA comics." Something that is known to people who have never read the story itself, but know what its about and what happens. Something like Death in the Family or Knightfall for Batman, Emerald Twilight, Final Night, or Sinestro Corps War for Green Lantern, the death of Gwen Stacy or Kraven's Last Hunt for Spider-Man, or the Dark Phoenix Saga for the X-Men.

[Zeeguy91]

Again, you're comparing newly launched titles on issue 14 to titles that are about to hit 700. Call me again when Spiderman relaunches and I'll give unfair comparison to Spiderman NOW and Aquaman52 like you the unfair comparison you just did.

Excuse me, a title that features a character that has always been looked at with admiration and has been a best-seller since day 1 compared to a title starring a character that has, up until recently, been the laughing stock of the DC Universe...

No...I think that's a pretty fair comparison to make. Or at least a good example to show how the reboot revitalized many of the DC characters to the point where some of their B-listers were competing with Marvel's A-list. Its not like before the reboot people were saying "Oh, you know what title is guaranteed to be awesome?...Aquaman!!"

[tylenoljones]

Excuse me, a title that features a character that has always been looked at with admiration and has been a best-seller since day 1 compared to a title starring a character that has, up until recently, been the laughing stock of the DC Universe...

No...I think that's a pretty fair comparison to make. Or at least a good example to show how the reboot revitalized many of the DC characters to the point where some of their B-listers were competing with Marvel's A-list. Its not like before the reboot people were saying "Oh, you know what title is guaranteed to be awesome?...Aquaman!!"

Your entire argument here ignores that fact that that "B-list laughing stock of the DC universe" got one of the most popular creative teams in the industry for the relaunch. Arguably one of the top, what, 3 writers as far as sales sucess in the comics business goes?

You really can't say it's a case of the characters becoming more popular on their own merit, and it would be delusional to assume Aquaman will retain this current popularity once Johns leaves the book.

[MajorHoy]

Again we have people ignoring the original purpose of this thread. (What a surprise.)

I'm not talking about the new 52.I'm talking about Crisis.They did it because nobody can keep up with the history.Why couldn't they ignore continuity like Marvel did?Silver Age Doctor Strange was urber powerful and even broke Living Tribual's trap, now he loses to canon folder.Thor was super powerful but now he loses to the hulk.See?DC could had ignored continuity like Marvel did but they just went with the reboot.I don't think it was needed.

[klinton]

"Need" is such a subjective word when you're talking about entertainment properties.

Has it been fun getting reaquainted with various corners of the DCU? Yes. Do I miss things from the old DCU? Yes. At the end of the day does it really matter? No.

[Master X]

Excuse me, a title that features a character that has always been looked at with admiration and has been a best-seller since day 1 compared to a title starring a character that has, up until recently, been the laughing stock of the DC Universe...

No...I think that's a pretty fair comparison to make. Or at least a good example to show how the reboot revitalized many of the DC characters to the point where some of their B-listers were competing with Marvel's A-list. Its not like before the reboot people were saying "Oh, you know what title is guaranteed to be awesome?...Aquaman!!"

My point stands perfectly. And yours is off the mark. In the eyes of the American public you'll find plenty know who Aquaman is. He's sort of between A and B list. And then the title was hyped and sold basically on the writer. And still...ISSUE 700 COMPARED TO NEWLY LAUNCHED MASSIVELY ADVERTISED LINEWIDE REBOOT ISSUE 14? i mean, good god dude, this is not rocket science. Some Batman titles sold lower pre-reboot (and now...maybe, I ain't checking) than NUAquaman52, are you going to make an unfair comparison there? Y'know going by your logic here...?