What do we want from Lemire's Green Arrow

[jackdaw53]

These are comic books, anything can cut it if done well. It's fiction.

Of course, anything can be done. But some things make more sense than others. To show a bow and arrow non meta making a sensible difference in modern DCNU you have to make one daft assumption after another. It tends to undermine story quality after a while.

If things like giving GA a decent power set are "off limits"... I wonder what point having a new universe is.

[Cowtools]

I want something that feels unique. I hate to make this comparison, but one of the reasons the new Hawkeye book is so good is that it doesn't read like anything else on the stands.

Also, one the the things that has always made Green Arrow stand out is that he has the biggest legacy family after Batman. They should make use of it.

[hunter_peterson]

Of course, anything can be done. But some things make more sense than others. To show a bow and arrow non meta making a sensible difference in modern DCNU you have to make one daft assumption after another. It tends to undermine story quality after a while.

If things like giving GA a decent power set are "off limits"... I wonder what point having a new universe is.

Except that would imply that ALL of the powerless heroes are in need of superpowers, including Batman. If anything, Batman is less realistic than Green Arrow, who has a dependable and adaptable ranged weapon that means he doesn't need to be in harm's way. There's literally nothing that makes GA having powers really all that interesting. What would they even be? I hate to be harsh, but it's a really dumb idea.

[doordoor123]

Why?

I think you completely missed everything I wrote. I meant everyone at DC so far has wanted a 007-Batman-esque Green Arrow. Not everyone in general. I don't think you read my other comments in the matter. You jumped in the middle of it.
Unless I am not understanding the meaning of your question.

[Desaad]

Except that would imply that ALL of the powerless heroes are in need of superpowers, including Batman. If anything, Batman is less realistic than Green Arrow, who has a dependable and adaptable ranged weapon that means he doesn't need to be in harm's way. There's literally nothing that makes GA having powers really all that interesting. What would they even be? I hate to be harsh, but it's a really dumb idea.

I don't want Green Arrow to have powers either, but the use of such an archaic and inefficient (in combat) weapon absolutely makes Green Arrow less believable than Batman.

Batman has super ninja training, he's got all kinds of super technology that deploys in various highly effective ways. He doesn't have to draw, pull back, and release each time, with all the time entailed in that.

Green Arrow, as he is now, is just a survivalist with a bunch of trick arrows. That's absurd in the extreme, even moreso than Batman, which is why I think the whole thing SHOULD be played as tongue in cheek.

[Desaad]

I want something that feels unique. I hate to make this comparison, but one of the reasons the new Hawkeye book is so good is that it doesn't read like anything else on the stands.

I agree with this, and I also fear we won't get it. Lemire's strength has never been his pop sensibility and energy. It's slow and steady character work. I'll be curious to see if he's really able to make this pop the way Fraction and Waid have.

[Nite-Wing]

Just return him to his social commentary roots.
I don't want to see him ranting about twitter but you know give him some contemporary issues to go lefty about.

[Theandric]

I'd like to see a tie-in with Power Girl in which a green arrow is used to open up the Boob Window...

seriously though, I have no knowledge of GA's history but I enjoyed the few issues that I've read recently, #12 - 14...I've been staying away from the back issues because it seems that the consensus is that the book thus far is no good, but i still wonder...

[InformationGeek]

I frankly just want this book to be enjoyable in some fashion for me. That's pretty much it.

[jackdaw53]

Look at his first long running solo series (the one that ran to about 130 issues, first 80 or so done by Mike Grell, most of rest by Chuck Dixon... always get confused whether that's vol 1 or 2... but no matter.)

Anyway, Grell issues weren't a super hero series at all. It was about a tough guy adventurer, often in settings where a bow did make just a bit of sense. The other issues were much more mainstream super hero stories. I enjoyed the Mike G stories a lot more.

That's one reason why I argue GA needs to be in an appropriate setting.... and if you want to keep him as a non powered geezer, that's really not DCNU coming up against ruthless supes, or even guys with guns.

Put it this way. Imagine GA had not been invented, and DC called a conference to consider new characters. Here's how it might go:-

Chairman: DCNU is a similar world to 21st century Earth. But with more advanced technology, magic, and a host of super powered heroes and villains. The villains are ruthless. We are looking for an hero/ heroine to make a major impact in this setting. We are looking for mainstream serious comics, not comedies. Ideas, please.

First contributor: Let's clad a guy in Lincoln green, give him no powers, but a bow and arrow and...

Chairman: As much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. Next idea, please....

[Talisman]

IDK...I'm enjoying his series on the WB just fine

[hunter_peterson]

I don't want Green Arrow to have powers either, but the use of such an archaic and inefficient (in combat) weapon absolutely makes Green Arrow less believable than Batman.

Batman has super ninja training, he's got all kinds of super technology that deploys in various highly effective ways. He doesn't have to draw, pull back, and release each time, with all the time entailed in that.

Green Arrow, as he is now, is just a survivalist with a bunch of trick arrows. That's absurd in the extreme, even moreso than Batman, which is why I think the whole thing SHOULD be played as tongue in cheek.

Of course, we don't actually KNOW that Green Arrow has no high-level training. In the previous continuity he had and it's yet to be touched upon in anything I've read relating to him. And I would argue that Ollie's being able to fire multiple arrows at once accurately already puts him beyond what could be expected of a real-life archer. I think we can say that his draw/fire rate would be almost unnaturally high.

I do agree that he should do more than use a bow, however. Krul's issues were boring as hell, but I really liked the booby trapping Ollie was doing in Brightest Day. I think that playing up the trapster angle would be really cool, because it gives him a way of picking off enemies without directly confronting them and also of herding them into his line of fire. It plays into the Robin Hood schtick too. And, of course, we'll always have the improbably useful trick arrows, which have been shown as equally useful as Batman's gadgets.

But Huntress's crossbow makes WAY more sense as a weapon, if you were deadset on arrows.

[marvelprince]

I'd like to see him be cooler than Hawkeye. That isn't that difficult of a task. Hawkeye's kind of a super-spy, man of action G.I. Joe type who just uses a bow & arrows. Ollie is a vigilante criminal, breaking society's rules with a grin on his face, breaking the law and laughing at the cops as he gets away. His arrogance and hypocrisy is actually what makes Ollie a dynamic character worth following.

I'd like to see beautifully choreographed kung-fu fights.

I'd like to see Arthur King and Roy Harper show up.

Lastly I'd like to see some really solid Green Arrow villains. I felt like J.T. Krul, pre-Flashpoint was just about to unleash some really cool shameless Robin Hood knock-off characters for us.

Dude, you pretty much described Hawkeye. Remember, Clint may be an Avenger and do work for SHIELD but he was a criminal and a carny first. Dude is a cowboy, he just leapts into frays headfirst. If you're not reading his series I highly recommend it. He's only appeared in costume for about two panels in the whole thing, and has been working gray areas (like stealing from thieves who're robbing New York's criminals). I think Ollie can definitely use some of Clint's coolness, but with as great as Hawkeye has been and how mediocre (thats me being nice) his series has been so far Lemire has his work cut out for him.

[marvelprince]

Look at his first long running solo series (the one that ran to about 130 issues, first 80 or so done by Mike Grell, most of rest by Chuck Dixon... always get confused whether that's vol 1 or 2... but no matter.)

Anyway, Grell issues weren't a super hero series at all. It was about a tough guy adventurer, often in settings where a bow did make just a bit of sense. The other issues were much more mainstream super hero stories. I enjoyed the Mike G stories a lot more.

That's one reason why I argue GA needs to be in an appropriate setting.... and if you want to keep him as a non powered geezer, that's really not DCNU coming up against ruthless supes, or even guys with guns.

Put it this way. Imagine GA had not been invented, and DC called a conference to consider new characters. Here's how it might go:-

Chairman: DCNU is a similar world to 21st century Earth. But with more advanced technology, magic, and a host of super powered heroes and villains. The villains are ruthless. We are looking for an hero/ heroine to make a major impact in this setting. We are looking for mainstream serious comics, not comedies. Ideas, please.

First contributor: Let's clad a guy in Lincoln green, give him no powers, but a bow and arrow and...

Chairman: As much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. Next idea, please....

I dunno, outside of Batman that throws a ton of other heroes under the bus. Does that mean Captain America doesn't work, or Shang Chi, Moon Knight, Daredevil, Elektra or any of the Bat-Family? What about Katanna? I don't think a hero needs powers to be effective, they just need appropriate skills. Yes, a bow and arrow is archaic but thats part of the charm. I love how Ultimate Hawkeye explains using arrows, cause guns are just too easy. You can play up other aspects of the character, play up the tech if you want. Play up Ollie as the tracker and hunter, or as the sniper or as a lunatic with a death wish that battles evil with a stick and string. There's multitudes of ways to make it work.

[jackdaw53]

I dunno, outside of Batman that throws a ton of other heroes under the bus. Does that mean Captain America doesn't work, or Shang Chi, Moon Knight, Daredevil, Elektra or any of the Bat-Family? What about Katanna? I don't think a hero needs powers to be effective, they just need appropriate skills. Yes, a bow and arrow is archaic but thats part of the charm. I love how Ultimate Hawkeye explains using arrows, cause guns are just too easy. You can play up other aspects of the character, play up the tech if you want. Play up Ollie as the tracker and hunter, or as the sniper or as a lunatic with a death wish that battles evil with a stick and string. There's multitudes of ways to make it work.

Captain America (most versions... varied a lot over time) has pretty high strength, speed, and durability ratings... many times over that of a normal non meta. And Daredevil has, of course, a very useful power set. And Ultimate Hawkeye routinely throws all sorts of stuff (not just a bow and arrow guy) with a speed and accuracy that is massively over non meta levels.

Bat-family? To be honest... my own feeling... is that they have a life style that a non meta wouldn't be able to survive for a week. But two points are are obviously germane. First, they get much more relevant training, are backed by the massive resources of Wayne Co, and are willing and able to use very advanced technology. It all adds up to a (slightly) more credible package than GA.

And second (and crucially)... they sell a lot more comics and merchandise than GA. Nobody is constantly posting threads about "how to fix the Bat family"... because it ain't broke.

On other hand we constantly see such threads on GA. Time to invoke the opposite of "If it ain't broke, don't fix"... admit there is a problem and fix it. Personally I think its got to point where GA needs a radical fix rather than a bit of tinkering... certainly if he's ever going to be a credible member of JLA again... or sustain a good selling solo series.