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  1. #16
    Veteran Member infernohara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stussyjones View Post
    Cap was the main one against wolverine joining the team ironman was all for it
    In the end, Cap went along with it. Thats the point. Ironman isn't taking any blame for Wolverine's membership, its Cap. At least on these boards. I mean really, how many times have Ironman and Wolverine interacted together after his membership? Not much at all.

  2. #17
    Marvel Zombie strathcona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerkaya View Post
    Why make a thread to those who the the pre Bendis era. Seems futile and asking for a horde X-fans making the usual
    Ignorant comments.
    I am not sure what you are trying to say here... but it seems like it's just insulting, lets try to keep it civil. I know you like similar comics to me, I just want to know why others feel differently.

    As for what I see people saying: There seem to be a few comments that the Avengers are dorky with their rules and membership regulations. i am not sure if most readers know this, but that was never a big part of many stories. Sure, there were some stories that used parts of the Avengers Charter as part of the plot, but never as THE plot (well, maybe Casey's first Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini). It's because the Avengers were a team that had close ties to the government or the UN, they had to have some rules and standards to meet. They were the team that the people looked to when the world needs saving, you don't want just anyone doing that... you want to make sure they are credible heroes, and are up to the task. Sure other heroes/teams have done the same thing numerous times... but for the Avengers, it's their jobs. They choose to be heroes, but it's their job to be Avengers.

    As for them creating their own threats, any group has the same problems. The X-Men are always trying to rehabilitate their foes, and it rarely works; Bishop turned against them; Xavier mishandling of Danger or Vulcan. I am sure it happens just as much with any group.

    Why the Avengers are seen as the best of the best and the X-Men and Spider-Man are hated and feared... that is just a concept that goes back to the inception of the MU and is too ingrained to be removed now. It doesn't make sense that the X-Men would be treated the way they are, but if you change that, then you get away from who they are and what the team represents.

    I disagree that the Avengers have boring villains. Ultron, Kang/Immortus, Zemo and the Masters of Evil, Grim Reaper. These are some great villains and they have had many great stories revolve around them. The X-Men have a decent rogue's gallery too, but too many of them have flip-flopped from good to evil so many times, it takes away their credibility often. Spider-Man does have a great rogue's gallery though, I'll give you that.

  3. #18
    Fabulous GreenComixEnvy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strathcona View Post
    I am not sure what you are trying to say here... but it seems like it's just insulting, lets try to keep it civil. I know you like similar comics to me, I just want to know why others feel differently.

    As for what I see people saying: There seem to be a few comments that the Avengers are dorky with their rules and membership regulations. i am not sure if most readers know this, but that was never a big part of many stories. Sure, there were some stories that used parts of the Avengers Charter as part of the plot, but never as THE plot (well, maybe Casey's first Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini). It's because the Avengers were a team that had close ties to the government or the UN, they had to have some rules and standards to meet. They were the team that the people looked to when the world needs saving, you don't want just anyone doing that... you want to make sure they are credible heroes, and are up to the task. Sure other heroes/teams have done the same thing numerous times... but for the Avengers, it's their jobs. They choose to be heroes, but it's their job to be Avengers.

    As for them creating their own threats, any group has the same problems. The X-Men are always trying to rehabilitate their foes, and it rarely works; Bishop turned against them; Xavier mishandling of Danger or Vulcan. I am sure it happens just as much with any group.

    Why the Avengers are seen as the best of the best and the X-Men and Spider-Man are hated and feared... that is just a concept that goes back to the inception of the MU and is too ingrained to be removed now. It doesn't make sense that the X-Men would be treated the way they are, but if you change that, then you get away from who they are and what the team represents.

    I disagree that the Avengers have boring villains. Ultron, Kang/Immortus, Zemo and the Masters of Evil, Grim Reaper. These are some great villains and they have had many great stories revolve around them. The X-Men have a decent rogue's gallery too, but too many of them have flip-flopped from good to evil so many times, it takes away their credibility often. Spider-Man does have a great rogue's gallery though, I'll give you that.
    The reason, imo, that people say that is the fact that some of the biggest haters of Bendis' Avengers and proponents of the "classic" Avengers, use the fact that his era didn't have any of those things as a reason to discredit the dudes work.

  4. #19
    Assimilation or Death Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I think, for me, it's the entitlement the heroes have; beloved by the public, when a lot of times they make situations worse. The most interesting time for the Avengers was during Dark Reign, when they weren't the "golden children" of the world. I mean, it's not like they vet members, or have any form of induction or test to take; but "suddenly" being an Avenger makes you one of the elite? Really?

    Heroes who we are TOLD are amazing, but yet rarely see any evidence to back it up (I mean, yes they are heroic... so are nearly ALL Marvel heroes, why am I to believe the Avengers are that much more heroic or that much more wonderful).
    I am an Avengers fan, but for the most part, I agree with you. There's no better example of this than AvX.

    And the worst offender is Cap. America, and that even in good runs- I love Busiek's Avengers, but even there it seems like every other issue you had someone proclaiming to the world how good, noble and worthy he is, even Thor- "Thou art the best thing to happen to Midgard since sliced bread, oh worthy one."

    Also, since most of their villains have the same goals- destruction and/or taking over the world- that are always destined to fail, then it's harder to root for them, because it never feels they can lose; for all the troubles his run had, Bendis successfuly adressed this. And that's also why the destruction of the Avengers mansion by Zemo worked so well- the villains were fighting for a more symbolic victory, and achieved it, and there the stakes felt real.
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  5. #20
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    The Avengers aren't boring at all. They're a highly complex group of individuals who've on occassion have had some major disagreements. I love the dynamic that they have and how they play off of each other. And as far as their villains go, hardly boring at all.

    Nefaria
    Ultron
    Kang
    Gravitron
    Morgan Le Fay
    Masters of Evil
    Zodiac
    Grim Reaper
    Nebula
    Kree
    Skrulls
    Immortus
    Korvac

    And there have been many great Avengers stories over the years so I don't buy the Avengers being boring at all. Some people just don't like them but I guess that can't be helped. Also, the Avengers are not the beloved, entitled heroe people think they are.
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  6. #21
    Senior Member Darthfury78's Avatar
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    It all depends on the writer.

  7. #22
    Veteran Member stussyjones's Avatar
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    To me Bendis made the avengers more interesting or as much as he could so avengers fans should thank him
    Last edited by stussyjones; 11-24-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  8. #23
    Um... DaveTVS's Avatar
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    I thought the Avengers were boring until Bendis because their characters were so hokey and they seemed so...silver age.

  9. #24
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    I don't think they've ever been innately boring. There are characters within the roster I've never been able to muster interest in. There have been storylines that were less interesting than others. As a whole though, I've can't say I've ever found "The Avengers" boring.

    The X-men, on the other hand....
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  10. #25
    Dilf εnthusiast Justin K.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    The Avengers aren't boring at all. They're a highly complex group of individuals who've on occassion have had some major disagreements. I love the dynamic that they have and how they play off of each other. And as far as their villains go, hardly boring at all.
    Nefaria- Point
    Ultron- AGH! Can't believe I forgot about him >_<
    Kang- I refuse to acknowledge this hot mess
    Gravitron- Point
    Morgan Le Fay- Point
    Masters of Evil- Point
    Zodiac- The group or character?
    Grim Reaper- Good Point! The first Avengers story I ever read had him. Too bad he's not a big player now.
    Nebula- Was she more MU? I only read her in the Infinity Gaunlet and saw that as more of a MU event than Avengers.
    Kree- Meh
    Skrulls- I always saw thm more as foes of the Fantastic Four
    Immortus- See my Kang answer
    Korvac- Point

  11. #26
    Veteran Member stussyjones's Avatar
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    When was the last time graviton or the master of evil done anything

  12. #27
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stussyjones View Post
    When was the last time graviton or the master of evil done anything
    The neo Masters of Evil have been knocking it out of the park over in Remender's Secret Avengers.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  13. #28
    Veteran Member stussyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    The neo Masters of Evil have been knocking it out of the park over in Remender's Secret Avengers.
    I've read it just think the originals are better than the neo

  14. #29
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stussyjones View Post
    I've read it just think the originals are better than the neo
    They've been around. Just not as a group. Zemo is probably the most active in recent memory.

    For some awesome Von Strucker time, check out Secret Warriors.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I think, for me, it's the entitlement the heroes have; beloved by the public, when a lot of times they make situations worse. The most interesting time for the Avengers was during Dark Reign, when they weren't the "golden children" of the world. I mean, it's not like they vet members, or have any form of induction or test to take; but "suddenly" being an Avenger makes you one of the elite? Really?

    Heroes who we are TOLD are amazing, but yet rarely see any evidence to back it up (I mean, yes they are heroic... so are nearly ALL Marvel heroes, why am I to believe the Avengers are that much more heroic or that much more wonderful).
    Yeah, that was something that kind of always bugged me.

    As a Spider-Man fan, I never got how he was the second stringer and the Avengers were "The Jocks." It seemed kind of elitist to me.

    Now, mind you, I get what they were going for- to make the Avengers seem like "larger than life" and give them a "majestic" quality. But I think it had the opposite effect- it made the Avengers look like jerks.

    I think something that held the Avengers back is that they rarely engaged in adventures that warranted their "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" status. Too often, I felt, the Avengers there merely fending OFF attacks by bad guys rather than going out and meeting larger than life, end of the world threats. And this was something that bogged the Avengers down from their very first story- too often times the bad guys would just decide the Avengers were too much of a threat and go after them, rather than the Avengers seeking the bad guys out.

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