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  1. #46
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    But there weren't, at that time. The cross time Kangs weren't introduced until after Secret Wars; at the time Secret Wars was published, Kang had been just one character, and had been regarded as definitively dead since Avengers #143, back in 1976. Looked at from that point of view, Kang didn't get the worst treatment at all; he actually got the best treatment possible, by being brought back from the dead and re-established as a viable character! At the time, as a longtime Kang fan, I was just delighted to see him again at all!
    True Tony, but I would argue that there was some precedent for the idea since we had seen Kang interact with earlier and later versions of himself before, like Kang vs. Rama Tut in Avengers, etc.. Not exactly the same idea but in the same ballpark anyway.
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  2. #47
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoon_jenkins View Post
    I didn't read Secret Wars until it was released in TPB (sometime in the 90s I think). I started reading comics just after Secret Wars ended or right around when it ended.

    The series did a good job in terms of action, moving from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, and giving various character moments in the spotlight.


    I did not like this. It felt like Shooter playing favorites, or not writing the characters consistently with how they were in their ongoing series. I also thinks it's cruddy that he broke up the Peter/Kitty relationship outside their regular series in this action fest.

    I also don't like Bob Layton filling in for Mike Zeck in the middle of the series. Despite it's flaws I like it overall.

    Over the years, I've been tempted to check out Secret Wars II. I actually like several of the crossovers I read, and the cover to #1 looks cool. But I still haven't read the miniseries itself for two main reasons. First, the word of mouth is almost uniformly negative. Second, I'm reluctant to get a series with Al Milgrom pencils unless I expect the story to be really good.
    Might as well check it out. There actually are a couple of okay issues of SW II, even if most of it is really bad. I enjoyed issue 7 where the powers of the universe are attempting to kill the Beyonder, and the Thing is forced to defend him.

    I also found a few things to like about the final issue. But even as a kid I was sorely disappointed by the 2nd series.
    Last edited by destro; 11-24-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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  3. #48
    I love the 80s! spoon_jenkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
    I enjoyed Al Milgrom's work on the Wolverine & Kitty Pryde miniseries, and I found his work with Bill Mantlo above-average on Spectacular Spider-Man (with a few exceptional covers, to be fair). That's about it, though.
    I like the Spectacular Spider-Man run, but that has a lot to do with how all the elements came together.
    "I don't care if they have definite connections to the boy scouts. They have Weapon X - I want him back. We spent a lot of money and resources developing and training him - not to mention your group as well - I won't see it thrown away."
    - Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, April 1979

    Unfortunately, Wolverine escaped to the U.S. with the X-Men. Soon after this stunning debacle, Trudeau's Liberal Party would go down to defeat in the May 1979 election.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by destro View Post
    True Tony, but I would argue that there was some precedent for the idea since we had seen Kang interact with earlier and later versions of himself before, like Kang vs. Rama Tut in Avengers, etc.. Not exactly the same idea but in the same ballpark anyway.
    Yeah, but at the end of Avengers #143 they stated that neither the older Rama Tut nor Immortus had ever existed following Kang's death; it was supposed to have obliterated all three of them from history, while leaving the heroes memories of them and the consequences of their actions in other times intact somehow.

  5. #50

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    Love Secret Wars! It holds up as a very exciting adventure that makes for a comfortable read. Yeah, Molecue Man and Klaw act totally different than previously, but I didn't care, because they were unique and interesting for the first time. Zeck wasn't at his best, but the art was mostly very good, with a few rushed places.

    I liked the first issue of Secret Wars Ii, but wasn't a fan of the rest. Al Milgrom did really solid work on Avengers and West Coast Avengers, but his SWII was awful. I enjoyed most of the crossovers in the monthly series quite a bit.

  6. #51
    NOT Bucky O'Hare! The Confessor's Avatar
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    For the record, I really liked the original Secret Wars for what it was -- big, dumb, superhero fun. Secret Wars II I've never read in its entirity, but it looked like a mess and I agree that it's intrusion into every other title that Marvel were putting out was generally unwelcome.
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  7. #52

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    I did enjoy the crossovers with SWII, but I hate what that led to. It helped ruin the industry. I remember while rereading Byrne's Superman, I enjoyed the first year a lot, but then it was a big mess because the crossovers killed the series. Gimmicks and stunts replacing quality as a means of sustaining sales is the work of morons!

  8. #53
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    In 1985, they were not "characters from different franchises" because there were no "franchises". They were just characters from the Marvel Universe.
    I agree, but I also feel that the different franchise thing was a deliberate result of Secret Wars. The scene where the X-Men arbitrarily side with Magneto instead of the other heroes felt forced, and was very likely another editorial mandate from Jim Shooter.
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  9. #54
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    I agree, but I also feel that the different franchise thing was a deliberate result of Secret Wars. The scene where the X-Men arbitrarily side with Magneto instead of the other heroes felt forced, and was very likely another editorial mandate from Jim Shooter.
    That kind of irritated me as well. Though I think it was more of an attempt from Shooter to match up with Claremont's idea of a reformed Magneto...or had Magneto already begun to reform in the X-Men at that point? I can't remember.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by destro View Post
    That kind of irritated me as well. Though I think it was more of an attempt from Shooter to match up with Claremont's idea of a reformed Magneto...or had Magneto already begun to reform in the X-Men at that point? I can't remember.
    Not quite. Magneto's reformation began a bit later.

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Not quite. Magneto's reformation began a bit later.
    Secret Wars was definitely the start.

  12. #57
    Modus omnibus in rebus Roquefort Raider's Avatar
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    Points I preferred: Doom's chutzpah. Man, you have to admire him for even daring to envision such a plan. Galactus deciding not to play, but to simply eat the planet. The Molecule Man driving Octopus nuts.

    Points I disliked the most: mmmh... mostly small things. The Editorially-Decreed Plot Twists that impacted the whole line, for one. The mischaracterization of several X-Men, with whom Jim Shooter appears to have been less familiar than with the Avengers. That galaxy being torn apart at the start of the series, even though it would take hundreds of thousands of years to do and to actually see, even if it were done at the speed of light.

    As others mentioned, though, Secret wars opened the door to fairly regular "events" that promised to "Change everything forevermore". And that was a Pandora box that definitely should have stayed closed.
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  13. #58
    Modus omnibus in rebus Roquefort Raider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Not quite. Magneto's reformation began a bit later.
    It started with Uncanny X-Men #150, when he almost killed Kitty Pryde and saw how he had turned into the very thing he hated. It continued in the graphic novel "God loves, man kills", in which he sided with the X-Men. Mags' redemption was a progressive thing, but it did start under the pen of Chris Claremont.
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  14. #59
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Poindexter View Post
    Secret Wars was definitely the start.
    Raider is 100% right on the button!

    (Man, I've gotta start ordering my Essential X-Men--I miss how great a book that was!)
    Last edited by LEADER DESSLOK; 11-26-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  15. #60
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    Count me in as someone else who was a big fan of Secret Wars, lots of fond memories associated w/it.

    I got this series toward the beginning of my comic collecting, when I only read ROM Spaceknight (!) and Amazing Spiderman. It was a great introduction to me on all these characters who I wasn't familiar with before. Some of them are my favorites to this day.

    The thing I really loved about the series that it actually made CHANGES to the status quo of most of the characters upon their return to Earth. Spiderman had a new (alien) costume, She-Hulk replaced the Thing on the FF, Rhodey became more confident as the new Iron Man, Magneto becomes allies w/the X-Men, the Collossus/Kitty romance ends etc. I loved all of it!!!

    And then there was...Secret Wars II. Which IMO is THE worst mini-series ever created. Complete shite!!! The only good result from the tie-ins to this event was I picked up Uncanny X-Men #202, a SWII tie-in, based on the team fighting the Sentinels on the cover. I was immediately hooked on the X-Men and they've been my favorite team ever since.
    Comics still reading: Floppies- Saga TPB- GI Joe ARAH, Sixth Gun, Hawkeye, Usagi Yojimbo. DC nu52 is unreadable...

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