Requesting explicit mod definitions of Victory, Defeat, and Death

[BitVyper]

This just occurred to me, and ctrl-Fing through the rules thread confirmed it. We don't really have specific definitions or rulings on these things, and they're kind of fundamental to what Rumbles is. We have a lot of rules that refer to winning and losing, but none that explicitly define what they are. They may seem self-evident, but when dealing with fictional characters who can potentially have any kind of power, it gets a little murky. Even real sports have to deal with this. I could swear that we used to have something written down somewhere, but I can't locate it, so I'd like to request a couple things, because I think the lack of definitions we can point to gives us a hard time quite often.

First off I'd like exactly what counts as a Win and what counts as a Loss to be explicitly defined as it pertains to Khazan scenarios. For instance; if Joe Fakename is disabled to the point of being unable to affect his opponent in any meaningful way, but remains active and unrestrained, are they defeated? What if they will eventually be able to keep on fighting? For instance, if someone temporarily disabled the Juggernaut's powers and broke all his bones, obviously he'd be able to keep fighting when his powers turned back on, but how long would Juggernaut have to remain disabled to qualify as defeated? What qualifies as a knockout? I'd like clearly defined concepts of Win and Loss that can be referred to. Also if possible, please refrain from using the concept of death, as it is effectively meaningless to some characters, and can mean totally different things to different characters. More on that below.

I'd like some definition of what Death means in the arena, specifically when it counts as a loss. Many many characters interact with the concept in different ways. If someone can autorez under their own power, does death count as a defeat? Is there a time limit? If someone persists in a spiritual form that is fundamentally different from their "living" form in terms of abilities, do they count as defeated. What about a scenario as with Goku? I made an argument for why, under current board rules, killing him once is effectively meaningless in this thread. Goku may be a politically charged character to discuss, but the same idea could certainly apply to other characters. What about a character who has save points as a power or something that is more than a game mechanic to them? Examples include Captain SNES, Lu Tze, and Iji. If Iji is allowed to save before a fight, does killing her count as defeating her? These aren't all the questions that can be asked, but they're a few.

Anyway, I hope that demonstrates where death can be tricky as it relates to winning or losing in a rumble. My personal feeling is that a character who is "killed" in such a way that they can no longer meaningfully affect their opponent for at least ten seconds is effectively KO'd. That still gives us some trouble with the Goku scenario though, because it's possible to make an argument that Goku would take more than ten seconds to return to the battlefield if he actually needs a pass (I don't agree with this argument, but I'm sure someone would make it), however Goku hasn't been disabled in any way by his death, so he's not really unable to affect his opponent, he's just been forced out of the ring. My feeling is that this is ultimately just a ring out scenario that demonstrates how meaningless (one) death is to the character.

So yeah, just some stuff I'd like to see explicitly defined.

[The MunchKING]

I think traditionally it was like boxing or KO rules in wrestling. If they couldn't get back to a fighting position by a ten count. Granted, that's just tradition, and never really codified as a rule...

Save points are trickier to codify as they are usually some sort of short-range time-travel in the Captain SNES verse, and something sort of similar anywhere else it's a game mechanic...

[BitVyper]

Yeah, I thought we actually had the ten count thing in the rules somewhere, but I guess I was wrong.

[Nik Hasta]

Huh, could have sworn the ten count was in the rules...

Sharp, Siriel, Watcher? Add it in?

[Sharpandpointies]

10-Count has been used for so long we might as well consider it a rule. Also ring-out - if the person cannot re-enter the arena under their own power after a ring-out (ie, spacetossing someone who can't fly...), that's a loss (note - there is no 10-count for Ringouts).

Iron Man throwing the Thing a few hundred miles doesn't count, as Ben is still on the planet and can (eventually) trundle back to continue the fight against a bored Tony.

The Hulk throwing the Thing past the moon is definitely a loss, even if the Ben didn't die in space due to lack of oxygen (work with me here, it's an example).

Sometimes the whole ten-count thing can be a little subjective and hard to judge, note. So it's worth looking at on a case-by-case basis.

[Sol M]

10-Count has been used for so long we might as well consider it a rule. Also ring-out - if the person cannot re-enter the arena under their own power after a ring-out (ie, spacetossing someone who can't fly...), that's a loss (note - there is no 10-count for Ringouts).

Iron Man throwing the Thing a few hundred miles doesn't count, as Ben is still on the planet and can (eventually) trundle back to continue the fight against a bored Tony.

The Hulk throwing the Thing past the moon is definitely a loss, even if the Ben didn't die in space due to lack of oxygen (work with me here, it's an example).

Ringouts are in the Rules, I think.

Ten counts have never been written into the rules though, and there have occasionally been debates of whether a particular thing counts as a ten count.

Not that writing it into the rules will change that, but it might avert some confusion if there are clearer rules on what exactly constitutes a ten count.

[Siriel]

If someone can autorez under their own power, does death count as a defeat?

No, though it can change depending on the specifics.

Is there a time limit?

Yes. That's what the ten count agreement is for, even if we never actually wrote it in the rules.
Someone who resurrects after, say, a day, would definitely count as defeated.

If someone persists in a spiritual form that is fundamentally different from their "living" form in terms of abilities, do they count as defeated.

No.

What about a scenario as with Goku?

See the thread you linked for Sharp's answer.

What about a character who has save points as a power or something that is more than a game mechanic to them?

Depends on the specifics.