Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 61
  1. #46
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,782

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Still a function of the setting - that an outside authority can tell Goku "Go ahead". And thus, only a function within the Dragonball Universe.

    So it's not an option for Goku in an arena fight.
    Technically, this isn't quiiite right, either.

    Dragon Ball afterlife turns you into a goofy spirit-thing unless you were given permission to keep your body. This basically keeps powerful, dead people, from screwing up the afterlife, too. Their souls get recycled and cleansed and they chill out or get reincarnated.

    Goku was given "permission," which works kind of like a powerup - when he dies, he immediately keeps his body because he did so much fighting (for good, instead of screwing stuff up). He never turned into a goofy spirit thing once dead because of that. Even Buu gets turned into a little spirit puff on death. Urani Baba had to go back and get Vegeta, etc.

    This is another case where Toei's filler messed stuff up. By showing Freeza/Cell/etc. with their bodies in Hell, it just made everything make no sense at all.

    The precedent for this is way back in Dragon Ball, where Goku met his grandfather, etc. when they went to see Urani Baba because they had those same permissions (as fighters).

    This normally wouldn't matter, but Goku can also dimensionally teleport, so he can just leave the afterlife whenever he feels like it, on top of keeping his body. He's the only one in his universe that can do this little cheat for this reason, outside of the Kaioshins (higher gods).

    Since this is a property that he was given by default (since he pops into halo-mode the second he dies), and he's able to shunt off on his own, it's kind of different than -needing- someone to be around to actually grant you the power consciously. It's already been done - it's set.

    Not saying that I disagree with your ruling, just because it's the goofiest idea ever that killing Goku just means he'll pop back in (possibly prepped, and able to pop back around you wherever he wants). I thought of it before, but it was just silly, and ignored it. But there is a technical argument for it, since it's a property he has that needs to be taken away at this point. It's no different than any other god-given powers - he "has" it at this point, just like, say, Captain Marvel has the powers of Shazaam or whatever.

  2. #47
    Everything for Big Fire BitVyper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    5,750

    Default

    There is an extremely small number of people who are able to keep their bodies in the afterlife, and they all do so based on having essentially the same powerset. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that say, Magneto would keep his body in the DBZ afterlife. DBZ fighters have their powersets developed around spiritual power, so it makes perfect sense that their "souls" would have more going for them. Goku is the ONLY being we've seen who can teleport out of the afterlife (presumably King Kai could do it too, but he's a god, and the guys who taught Goku the power probabl don't keep their bodies), and we know very little about his teleportation power, but his ability to get out of the afterlife with it proves it can go between planes of existence. I'm sure if Dr. Strange had a spell going for him that let him keep his powers in the afterlife, we'd be okay with him teleporting out via magic. The only difference is that Goku keeps his body after dying as a default. In order to get out of the afterlife in DBZ, one must be able to retain their body and powers in the afterlife, and also be able to teleport out of the afterlife; this would allow one to get out of the afterlife in any setting that has an afterlife anyway.

    As far as the permission thing; I think that's one way, but I think the fact that Radditz kept his body (presumably until Enma beat him up) pretty much proves that permission isn't necessarily a requirement.

    Edit: As far as it being an artifact of the setting goes; I thought we didn't worry about setting-specific powers too much. Otherwise Neo is just a guy with his head in a machine and Reboot's Bob is just data.

    I am for real not going any further here though. I just think the setting-based argument is kind of a flimsy justification to ignore one of Goku's powers for the purpose of avoiding disputes.

    it's the goofiest idea ever that killing Goku just means he'll pop back in (possibly prepped, and able to pop back around you wherever he wants). I thought of it before, but it was just silly, and ignored it
    I would agree with this except that we allow every goofy argument that makes technical sense for pretty much every other character, so I actually don't see a good reason to rule it out.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 11-26-2012 at 07:47 PM.
    I swim through a sea of stars
    without looking back to shore.
    Faster than light, bending time

    Forever
    Wherever

  3. #48
    Elder Member Pendaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    22,013

    Default

    The only difference is that Goku keeps his body after dying as a default. In order to get out of the afterlife in DBZ, one must be able to retain their body and powers in the afterlife, and also be able to teleport out of the afterlife; this would allow one to get out of the afterlife in any setting that has an afterlife anyway.
    So given the purported galaxy busting stuff you've previously tried to put forward and that apparently Goku cannot be killed in any meaningful way, who would you say can actually beat him?

  4. #49
    Veteran Member moonknight11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7,875

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So given the purported galaxy busting stuff you've previously tried to put forward and that apparently Goku cannot be killed in any meaningful way, who would you say can actually beat him?
    Actually it would only grant him an extra life. Once he goes down again he's dead for good. Yeah the DBZ after-life is dumb.

  5. #50
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    There's a voice, that keeps on calling me....
    Posts
    7,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    Actually it would only grant him an extra life. Once he goes down again he's dead for good. Yeah the DBZ after-life is dumb.
    "Don't worry - the guy that just totally killed you, hasn't permanently killed you. I hereby return you to life, so you can go back, fight him again, and get killed for good this time."
    Yes, I know the voices aren't real. But they do have some VERY good ideas....

  6. #51
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    26,459

    Default

    EDIT: Ok I'm editing my post a little because this has been ruled on and I don't want it to turn into a big debate over what has already been ruled. I'll just say a few things: I don't thinking comparisons to Neo are spot on, Neo is technically powerless in another universe, Goku is far from it. He just can't shrug off the afterlife.

    The main thing that gets me is we were told he had permission only for one day. That suggests a limit, teleporting ability or not. I wouldn't necessarily say "permission for one day" translates into "permission for whenever you want because you can teleport". If we were to think about granting this ability to any character we'd need to be 100% sure they could do it.
    Last edited by Surtur; 11-27-2012 at 06:27 AM.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  7. #52
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,782

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    The main thing that gets me is we were told he had permission only for one day. That suggests a limit, teleporting ability or not. I wouldn't necessarily say "permission for one day" translates into "permission for whenever you want because you can teleport". If we were to think about granting this ability to any character we'd need to be 100% sure they could do it.
    He's not "blocked" from doing it, he just stays there to be "nice."

    Remember, Goku literally teleported from the afterlife to go to a HIGHER plane than that later on, where he wasn't supposed to be allowed, when he went to go see what Gohan was doing. And Kid Buu could just go wherever the hell he wants too, and there's nothing they can do about it.

    The rule is basically that the afterlife is protected because everyone automatically turns into a spirit when they die, unless they're given a special pass on that due to being an extraordinary fighter. And, even with that pass, they're trapped there. The issue being that one of these extraordinary fighters that is given this power is more powerful than any god and can teleport wherever he wants to. Which makes it very fortunate that this guy suffers from mental retardation (literally, due to hitting his head on a rock), and can't help -but- be nice. In other words, DB gods are stupid (and given that the oldest one merged with a witch by accident and is obsessed with naked women, this is purposeful).

  8. #53
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    26,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    He's not "blocked" from doing it, he just stays there to be "nice."

    Remember, Goku literally teleported from the afterlife to go to a HIGHER plane than that later on, where he wasn't supposed to be allowed, when he went to go see what Gohan was doing. And Kid Buu could just go wherever the hell he wants too, and there's nothing they can do about it.

    The rule is basically that the afterlife is protected because everyone automatically turns into a spirit when they die, unless they're given a special pass on that due to being an extraordinary fighter. And, even with that pass, they're trapped there. The issue being that one of these extraordinary fighters that is given this power is more powerful than any god and can teleport wherever he wants to. Which makes it very fortunate that this guy suffers from mental retardation (literally, due to hitting his head on a rock), and can't help -but- be nice. In other words, DB gods are stupid (and given that the oldest one merged with a witch by accident and is obsessed with naked women, this is purposeful).
    We were told he specifically needed permission and was only given a day though. It seemed to be played pretty straight : Goku is dead and can't leave without permission, said permission only being for a day. I know he could teleport into(and presumably out of) the afterlife while alive, but since he wasn't dead at the time the "you can't leave without permission" might only come into play once you day. It doesn't seem to be too massive a stretch to me if different rules applied when you were dead vs being alive. Granted it doesn't seem like a stretch for there not to be different rules either, but I'm talking about being 100% sure here.

    Also to be fair..is he more powerful then any god? Any god we've seen, sure. I don't think any of the kai's or grand kai were universe creators or anything..were they? I always thought they oversaw the afterlife and their space sectors, but they didn't actually create the universe or anything. Remember the term "god" is also relative. Gods in DBZ are high end superhumans in DC/Marvel.
    Last edited by Surtur; 11-27-2012 at 07:21 AM.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  9. #54
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Stockholm in Sweden
    Posts
    15,772

    Default

    *reads through thread*

    I just realised that there's a Goku corpse, from the Radditz-fight, fight buried somewhere on Dragonball earth.

    That's kind of freaky.

  10. #55
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    26,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    *reads through thread*

    I just realised that there's a Goku corpse, from the Radditz-fight, fight buried somewhere on Dragonball earth.

    That's kind of freaky.
    Now I'm surprised we've never had someone like Dr. Gero try to animate them a zombie Goku.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  11. #56
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    13,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    *reads through thread*

    I just realised that there's a Goku corpse, from the Radditz-fight, fight buried somewhere on Dragonball earth.

    That's kind of freaky.
    Nah, it disappeared (brought by Kami) so Goku could use it on the afterlife.

    As a sidenote Kami was also the one who fixed Chiaotzu's body so he could train with Kai, after he self destructed on Nappa.

  12. #57
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,782

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    We were told he specifically needed permission and was only given a day though. It seemed to be played pretty straight : Goku is dead and can't leave without permission, said permission only being for a day. I know he could teleport into(and presumably out of) the afterlife while alive, but since he wasn't dead at the time the "you can't leave without permission" might only come into play once you day. It doesn't seem to be too massive a stretch to me if different rules applied when you were dead vs being alive. Granted it doesn't seem like a stretch for there not to be different rules either, but I'm talking about being 100% sure here.

    Also to be fair..is he more powerful then any god? Any god we've seen, sure. I don't think any of the kai's or grand kai were universe creators or anything..were they? I always thought they oversaw the afterlife and their space sectors, but they didn't actually create the universe or anything. Remember the term "god" is also relative. Gods in DBZ are high end superhumans in DC/Marvel.
    While he was dead, he teleported to an even HIGHER plane than "living" when he went to the Kaioshin plane and hung out there (even though mortals weren't allowed there, and Gohan was given special emergency permission).

    Dragon Ball death/life/whatever works basically as dimensional jumps, only with a default "rule" that when you die, you go to the "higher" dimension of death where the Kais stay, but lose your body (and are reincarnated back to the lower "alive" plane eventually). The Kaioshins ("shin" is a suffix that means, "greater," basically, so 'greater kaios') stay on a dimension even higher than that.

    Goku's teleport allows him to lock on to any ki signature he senses, which wouldn't be -that- big of a deal since it's just universal teleportation, basically. The "problem" is; Goku can sense ki across every dimension, and that teleport doesn't abide by dimensional rules. So he can go wherever he senses someone. And the issue was the same with Kid Buu, which is why, once he got the teleport, EVERY dimension was in danger. Normally, you have to get past the check - in stations, but Goku can "skip" them. See how Toriyama laid it out below:

    In Daizenshuu 4, Daizenshuu 7, and the Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guides, Akira Toriyama explains that he envisioned the Dragon Ball cosmos as a big ball. This ball is divided up in two halves: the realm of the living (or "The Universe") and the Other World (or "The Cosmos"), with Hell located between the two halves.

    The realm of living is divided into four Quadrants, each ruled by a Kai chosen among the Shin-jins from Planet Kaishin. There is one Check-In Station for the four Quadrants of the universe, which allows its inhabitants to go to the Other World. The Kais live in the Other World, on planets located on the four sides of the cosmos; notably, North Kai's planet is at the end of a Snake Way which starts from the Check-In Station. The Grand Kai's planet is above Heaven, which is a gigantic planet in the center of the cosmos.
    The planet of the Kaioshins, the top-tier deities of the universe who watch over both the Other World and the living world, is located outside of the ball, in the Sacred World of the Kais. The Demon Realm, where the Makaioshins (the complete opposite of the Kaioshins) live, is located on the very bottom pin/tip shaped of the universe.
    When Vegeta was dead and allowed permission to come back to help Goku fight Buu, he needed a special escort to the exit of the spirit world (Urania Baba), which is entirely different than Goku, who could just appear and leave if he wanted to.

    There's nothing stopping Goku from jumping dimensions except for Goku, really. But this is a guy that was too dumb to teach anyone:

    a) kaioken
    b) teleportation
    c) the spirit bomb

    ...in the first place, so look at who you're referring to.

    edit: I typically separate between highest deities and lower deities between the upper and lowercase "G" like the Bible did it, when it separated the universe creator from beings/things people worshiped by that. Dragon Ball's highest known gods are the kaioshins, but they're pretty weak by god standards, and it's unknown if there's someone above them or not.
    Last edited by abmccray; 11-27-2012 at 09:07 AM.

  13. #58
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    50,459

    Default

    Should people wish to argue/contest the ruling, please PM me. As usual.

    Otherwise, let's drop that from this discussion.

  14. #59
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,782

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Should people wish to argue/contest the ruling, please PM me. As usual.

    Otherwise, let's drop that from this discussion.
    We're just having a side discussion about how it even -works= at this point, I believe.

  15. #60
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    50,459

    Default

    That's fine. :) The above post isn't specifically directed at you - I just dropped in here and noticed a few things after the Ruling.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •