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  1. #31
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugsySig View Post
    --and other than the deadly activation procedure (which is voluntary by the way) and Joe's death there has actually been very little to suggest evil intentions.
    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    It makes sense that Harada hasn't shown evil intent- he doesn't have it.
    Ahh...this is taking kind of a disturbing turn. Ingrid clearly understood Harada to have directly given the order for Joe's death, and for clearly manipulative reasons. Harada and his organization said Joe would be taken care of, and he was put into a slum. The clear implication is that they forced hard narcotics on him through injection. Harada's team pretty clearly had clearance to beat and torture - and likely murder - Pete if he couldn't be turned or subdued. Harada states that Pete (and by implication everyone else, when he refers to himself as The Omega) must serve him or die. As a matter of policy, he authorizes and even encourages the thought and memory manipulation of thousands - tens of thousands. He murders people in a twisted kind of mental Russian Roulette in his effort to gain more power and dominance - an effort to control all humanity - even if it is with their consent on the chances involved (and we only have his word on that; given his other behavior patterns, this seems highly suspect).

    And there is little to suggest evil intentions? He doesn't have evil intent?

    What?

    On another topic, is it really likely that tin foil hats are keeping Harada from locating them?
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  2. #32
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Magneto would say his goals are much the same. The issue is that that the "masses" are those that have abilities that others don't have. He is knowingly murdering 1 of every 4 people he tries to give those powers to, as well.

    Harada is a bit more realistically subtle (so far) than Magneto, but every bit as evil.
    By "masses" I meant the actual masses. He states in #3 that he doesn't manipulate the markets or anything, even w/ his powers and being a vehement capitalist, as he feels proper free agency is required for the system to work. He allows people to make their own decisions, whether it's the products they buy or the dangerous procedures they volunteer for.

    Quote Originally Posted by BugsySig View Post
    I think the mere fact that we are discussing this so passionately is a reflection of the excellent job VALIANT is doing, and may even be what Dysart had in mind. I hope I didn't come off as too strong either. I teach civics and sometimes get caught up playing Devil's advocate. Of course where I live I am often defending the conservative viewpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    It makes sense that Harada hasn't shown evil intent- he doesn't have it. But he does undoubtedly commit acts that are themselves considered evil. I don't personally consider the activation procedure itself to be evil because it's voluntary (though the level of freedom that people are given when faced with that choice is debatable, especially given how the Foundation has been shown to manipulate people into saying yes by picking their moments very carefully... plus, it would be hard to say no to superpowers), but forcing Peter to attempt to activate Faith was very questionable. He basically ordered him to play Russian roulette with an innocent life, just to prove a point. He's also shown great hubris, as the Bleeding Monk pointed out to him. He thinks he can save the world against it's will, but all he's really doing is reshaping it to his image.

    ...

    I would say at escapism isn't quite the point of Harbinger, given what it deals with. It's extremely heightened reality, but the problems are mostly the same. And as BugsySig pointed out, we really have two opposed protagonist groups. So we're not supposed to see the Renegades as heroes, we're supposed to see them as dangerous, just like we're supposed to see Harada and his Eggbreakers as dangerous. Who is right and who is wrong is not something I think will ever be answered. It works better left up to the reader... these lengthy discussions prove that.
    all interesting points in which I agree!
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    On another topic, is it really likely that tin foil hats are keeping Harada from locating them?
    I actually took that for a sight gag. Subtle but keeping the comic in the "funny books".
    "Freedom is the Right of ALL Sentient Beings" - Optimus Prime
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  4. #34
    Junior Member Hawkeyeps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    On another topic, is it really likely that tin foil hats are keeping Harada from locating them?
    Tin foil hats absolutely work, I have been wearing one for years

  5. #35
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    me too
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Craig View Post
    I actually took that for a sight gag. Subtle but keeping the comic in the "funny books".
    me too, but I'm left wondering my Harada hasn't moved in a month.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  6. #36
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Ahh...this is taking kind of a disturbing turn. Ingrid clearly understood Harada to have directly given the order for Joe's death, and for clearly manipulative reasons. Harada and his organization said Joe would be taken care of, and he was put into a slum. The clear implication is that they forced hard narcotics on him through injection. Harada's team pretty clearly had clearance to beat and torture - and likely murder - Pete if he couldn't be turned or subdued. Harada states that Pete (and by implication everyone else, when he refers to himself as The Omega) must serve him or die. As a matter of policy, he authorizes and even encourages the thought and memory manipulation of thousands - tens of thousands. He murders people in a twisted kind of mental Russian Roulette in his effort to gain more power and dominance - an effort to control all humanity - even if it is with their consent on the chances involved (and we only have his word on that; given his other behavior patterns, this seems highly suspect).

    And there is little to suggest evil intentions? He doesn't have evil intent?

    What?

    On another topic, is it really likely that tin foil hats are keeping Harada from locating them?
    Well, I would say that because he still MEANS well, he lacks evil intent. But everything you mentioned was something terrible he's been willing to do to accomplish what he sees as good. Put simply; those are evil actions, but his intent is good. Harada seems to care about the bigger picture more than the small, the opposite of Peter who largely doesn't care about the big picture. Which is a great showing of the differences between their generations.

    Also, yeah, LOL at the foil hats! Except they actually seem to work... which is even more hilarious.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    Well, I would say that because he still MEANS well, he lacks evil intent.
    I'm sorry, but if you think that those things don't constitute evil intent, I just don't know what to say. The man repeats this despicable behavior every day, uses his powers to wipe memories so he won't be investigated for any of his actions. He treats non-powered humans as trash and unactivated humans as, at best, disposable. Only living beings who've survived activation have any value to him.

    Meanwhile, the Renegades have 1) raped a girl - inexcusable but he does appear to be truly regretful of it and is vowing to turn his behavior around after seeing the depths to which it can be used in Harada and 2) robbed a bank because something drastic had to be done and quickly. Kris' justifications were suspect, but it's hardly the most evil action with the most evil intent we've seen in the book. The truly horrifying, evil stuff done without remorse has all been done on Harada's side.

    There is no question he is the bad guy here.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  8. #38
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    I'm sorry, but if you think that those things don't constitute evil intent, I just don't know what to say. The man repeats this despicable behavior every day, uses his powers to wipe memories so he won't be investigated for any of his actions. He treats non-powered humans as trash and unactivated humans as, at best, disposable. Only living beings who've survived activation have any value to him.

    Meanwhile, the Renegades have 1) raped a girl - inexcusable but he does appear to be truly regretful of it and is vowing to turn his behavior around after seeing the depths to which it can be used in Harada and 2) robbed a bank because something drastic had to be done and quickly. Kris' justifications were suspect, but it's hardly the most evil action with the most evil intent we've seen in the book. The truly horrifying, evil stuff done without remorse has all been done on Harada's side.

    There is no question he is the bad guy here.
    I totally agree, Harada is the one who is currently the most questionable. But you're confusing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that when he does these acts he doesn't intend harm to those he targets. I'm saying that he feels these are the necessary sacrifices to make a better world. His motivations, his intent, are to do good. It's how he goes about it that is largely detestable.

    Basically, I'm separating the action from the motivation. Harada is a pure utilitarian; any ends justify his means. In his eyes, he has no ill will in his actions.

    I would also argue that he doesn't seem to hate ordinary humans, he just thinks he's above them... he's not exactly wrong, in a way. He's capable of more than we ever are and he can actually, objectively understand what other people think about things. Though, while he'd say he was doing everything he does for others, he still wants to be the godling pulling the strings.
    Last edited by hunter_peterson; 11-26-2012 at 04:26 AM.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member rasx's Avatar
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    Harada's motivations are like Magneto, willing to take extreme measures for what he thinks is best for mutants(Harbingers).
    New Avengers*Unity* Shadowman* RAI* TRANSFORMERS* MILES MORALES

  10. #40
    Member thewarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasx View Post
    Harada's motivations are like Magneto, willing to take extreme measures for what he thinks is best for mutants(Harbingers).
    I disagree. He wants an Earth on his own terms and is using Harbinger to achieve it.

  11. #41
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    This thread is so awesome! :D

    I think that Harada thinks he's doing the best for the world, but actually is motivated by pride and lust for power and is simply nt self-aware enough to see it. He's a guy who thinks he can reach out and solve everything wrong with the world... of course he's misguided.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member rasx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    This thread is so awesome! :D

    I think that Harada thinks he's doing the best for the world, but actually is motivated by pride and lust for power and is simply nt self-aware enough to see it. He's a guy who thinks he can reach out and solve everything wrong with the world... of course he's misguided.
    I agree, at least Pete is willing to admit when he's wrong, but not Harada he's to proud for him to listen to anyone.
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  13. #43
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewarning View Post
    I hope Kris isn't/doesn't get pregnant anytime soon in the coming issues. Now that she's not going to have Magnus, what's the point besides shock? (And don't try to tell me she's going to have Rai! )
    I would liek to see the whole pregnancy angle covered more in depth this time around. It was really only left to the two Unity issues back in the 90s, then baby Magnus was off to the future. Considering the decompressed timeline, she could hide it for a while, leading to questions over who the father is (Pete, Joe, Torque) as well as how that affects the individuals involved.

    Obviously it couldnt be Magnus this time around, but maybe something happens to the baby that leaves open that possibility should the character ever be bought by VEI? Or it could turn out to be a brand new character in the future.
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  14. #44
    Member thewarning's Avatar
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    Sure, I can dig it. I'd just like some more time to pass, first. I do not want her to be pregnant by Joe, as someone here suggested...

  15. #45
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewarning View Post
    Sure, I can dig it. I'd just like some more time to pass, first. I do not want her to be pregnant by Joe, as someone here suggested...
    Yeah, that was me I just had a thought that it would be an interesting twist, and eliminate the Magnus element. It would also make it intereting if that were the case and she does end up having a relationship with both Pete and Torque.

    I agree, though. We know from Dysart that Torque will be around for much longer this time. Some have suggested not killing him at all, which I would be fine with, but I think the death of one of the Renegades at some point is necessary for the development of the other characters. It helps them face their own mortality, while reinforcing their drive to combat Harada.
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