Hawkeye #4 *Spoilers*

**SomeBodyAtCBR** · 11-25-2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans

I've expressed the same belief that this is a ruse, my argumetns in regards to what happened are purely hypothetical under the assumption it's true. It's likely just a ploy to get a bunch of criminals together for a big SHIELD ambush. I've just expressed concern that this might not be the case, simply because you just never know for sure, but it's probably just Fraction wanting to generate buzz, and judging by the 7 pages of this thread, it's done its job.

Hey, I'm with you on that. I don't want it to actually be what it seems to be. But I'm having some faith in Fraction. I think it's just something to generate buzz (I mean really, how do you generate buzz with a Hawkeye comic aside from the one or two things the guy is known for) and I'm not willing to give into all this fuss and arguing. I've given that up with Bendis's last awful Avengers issue and now am becoming a patron saint of the wait-and-see game -- which includes not going back and forth for several pages on speculation and trying to introduce truth and logic into Internet anarchy.

Oh, and for the record -- heroes shouldn't kill. It's not a Seduction of the Innocence thing, it's a moral high-ground issue. As beings of greater than average power they should be able to comprehend that the decision to take a life is not theirs. Nobody (except possibly a creator(s)) has the right to determine whether a human life can be ended. Simple as that. The highest moral ground any society can take is to keep those who feel they can end human life away from humans. They do not have the authority to end life themselves. That's what makes a hero interesting.

**Deus ex Chris** · 11-25-2012, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by SomeBodyAtCBR

Hey, I'm with you on that. I don't want it to actually be what it seems to be. But I'm having some faith in Fraction. I think it's just something to generate buzz (I mean really, how do you generate buzz with a Hawkeye comic aside from the one or two things the guy is known for) and I'm not willing to give into all this fuss and arguing. I've given that up with Bendis's last awful Avengers issue and now am becoming a patron saint of the wait-and-see game -- which includes not going back and forth for several pages on speculation and trying to introduce truth and logic into Internet anarchy.

Oh, and for the record -- heroes shouldn't kill. It's not a Seduction of the Innocence thing, it's a moral high-ground issue. As beings of greater than average power they should be able to comprehend that the decision to take a life is not theirs. Nobody (except possibly a creator(s)) has the right to determine whether a human life can be ended. Simple as that. The highest moral ground any society can take is to keep those who feel they can end human life away from humans. They do not have the authority to end life themselves. That's what makes a hero interesting.

There are many things that can make a hero interesting, including making the choice to kill and dealing with the fallout.

**SomeBodyAtCBR** · 11-25-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Deus ex Chris

There are many things that can make a hero interesting, including making the choice to kill and dealing with the fallout.

That's also true, but conversely having a hero who doesn't kill for altruistic reasons is interesting as well. Before I decided to inject my personal feelings on the subject, I really just wanted to point out that the reason heroes don't kill isn't because it was the preference then but is now passe but that there are real good reasons why these heroes shouldn't kill that go far deeper than "because the companies wouldn't allow it back then". I think there's far more interesting philosophical material to come out of heroes not killing (and like you said the fallout of killing) than something like a Wolverine kill-fest. Not to mention I truly believe that heroes shouldn't kill.

**Deus ex Chris** · 11-25-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by SomeBodyAtCBR

That's also true, but conversely having a hero who doesn't kill for altruistic reasons is interesting as well. Before I decided to inject my personal feelings on the subject, I really just wanted to point out that the reason heroes don't kill isn't because it was the preference then but is now passe but that there are real good reasons why these heroes shouldn't kill that go far deeper than "because the companies wouldn't allow it back then". I think there's far more interesting philosophical material to come out of heroes not killing (and like you said the fallout of killing) than something like a Wolverine kill-fest. Not to mention I truly believe that heroes shouldn't kill.

Nobody should kill if they can help it. That's the ideal and also the conversation because life can be a little messier than that.

**Prince Of Orphans** · 11-25-2012, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by SomeBodyAtCBR

Hey, I'm with you on that. I don't want it to actually be what it seems to be. But I'm having some faith in Fraction. I think it's just something to generate buzz (I mean really, how do you generate buzz with a Hawkeye comic aside from the one or two things the guy is known for) and I'm not willing to give into all this fuss and arguing. I've given that up with Bendis's last awful Avengers issue and now am becoming a patron saint of the wait-and-see game -- which includes not going back and forth for several pages on speculation and trying to introduce truth and logic into Internet anarchy.

I hear ya. If it's one thing Bendis has taught me, it's that.

Originally Posted by SomeBodyAtCBR

Oh, and for the record -- heroes shouldn't kill. It's not a Seduction of the Innocence thing, it's a moral high-ground issue. As beings of greater than average power they should be able to comprehend that the decision to take a life is not theirs. Nobody (except possibly a creator(s)) has the right to determine whether a human life can be ended. Simple as that. The highest moral ground any society can take is to keep those who feel they can end human life away from humans. They do not have the authority to end life themselves. That's what makes a hero interesting.

Exactly. You put it in much better words than I could have. It was never an issue over whether they kill or don't kill, just whether they should or not. Having the moral high-ground definitely comes into play in regards to that. Then it's an issue of how different they are from the villains who do kill.

**Blade X** · 11-25-2012, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by SomeBodyAtCBR

That's also true, but conversely having a hero who doesn't kill for altruistic reasons is interesting as well. Before I decided to inject my personal feelings on the subject, I really just wanted to point out that the reason heroes don't kill isn't because it was the preference then but is now passe but that there are real good reasons why these heroes shouldn't kill that go far deeper than "because the companies wouldn't allow it back then". I think there's far more interesting philosophical material to come out of heroes not killing (and like you said the fallout of killing) than something like a Wolverine kill-fest. Not to mention I truly believe that heroes shouldn't kill.

Quoted for the truth (and I say this as someone who is a fan of Wolverine and Deadpool). And for the record (in case anyone is wondering), I don't read (or intend to read) the current HAWKEYE series, but I do find the "kill/don't kill" debate on this thread very interesting. Which, of course, is why I responded to your post.

**Predabot** · 11-25-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Blade X

Quoted for the truth (and I say this as someone who is a fan of Wolverine and Deadpool). And for the record (in case anyone is wondering), I don't read (or intend to read) the current HAWKEYE series, but I do find the "kill/don't kill" debate on this thread very interesting. Which, of course, is why I responded to your post.

A very stupid and pig-headed decision that, Sir.

This is, IMO, the greatest Hawkeye-series of all time. You are missing out on some of the greatest characterisation that your hero has ever received. Quite the shame.

**Prince Of Orphans** · 11-25-2012, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Predabot

This is, IMO, the greatest Hawkeye-series of all time. You are missing out on some of the greatest characterisation that your hero has ever received. Quite the shame.

Outside of the possibility that he may have assassinated someone for SHIELD, I'd agree. It has been an amazing series so far.

**Methalius** · 11-26-2012, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Desaad

The similarities are there, but they're largely tonal. They're both fun, often tongue-in-cheek, character-centric street level books that are hugely dependent on the art for their value.

I completely disagree. The reason I enjoy both Daredevil and Hawkeye as much as I have is because of the dialogue and the script. I actually am not a huge fan of either artists work as a rule. Meaning, I wouldn't just buy a book solely because of Rivera or Aja's work. In the past I've not been a fan of Fractions work. I wasn't a fan of Iron Man nor Uncanny X-Men. I have to admit that his short run on this series has been freaking brilliant.

**Blade X** · 11-26-2012, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Predabot

A very stupid and pig-headed decision that, Sir.

This is, IMO, the greatest Hawkeye-series of all time. You are missing out on some of the greatest characterisation that your hero has ever received. Quite the shame.

3 reasons why I won't read this book.

1. Hawkeye's (IMO) current crappy "costume".

2. Hawkeye shooting arrows into people's eyes and/or killing people.

3. The unnecessary "mature" content in this book (the strongly implied sexual innuendos and the TV-14 profanity).

**CyberHubbs** · 11-26-2012, 02:54 PM

Hawkeye did sleep with a woman in this book, yes.

Clearly something never shown in a comic book before ten to twelve years ago.

**Prince Of Orphans** · 11-26-2012, 03:59 PM

Different strokes for different folks. I'm not a fan of the eye gouging either really. A little brutal for his MO. Still a good step under actually killing someone. At least until last issue's question's are answered.

**Darthfury78** · 11-26-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by CyberHubbs

Hawkeye did sleep with a woman in this book, yes.

Clearly something never shown in a comic book before ten to twelve years ago.

I wonder how would his girlfriend Jessica Drew would take the revelation that he slept with another woman while they are in a relationship.

Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans

Different strokes for different folks. I'm not a fan of the eye gouging either really. A little brutal for his MO. Still a good step under actually killing someone. At least until last issue's question's are answered.

This is what Todd McFarlane did with Spider-Man #16 in 1991 with Shatterstar pieced his twin sword into the Juggernaut's eye ball. And the Editor told him to redraw the scene. Along with the scene where the Lizard was struck by a pile of bullets from the police. How times have changed from only 21 years ago.

**Blade X** · 11-26-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by CyberHubbs

Hawkeye did sleep with a woman in this book, yes.

Clearly something never shown in a comic book before ten to twelve years ago.

And clearly you don't understand the meaning of the words "STRONGLY IMPLIED". Having Hawkeye walk around and fight bad guys butt naked right after being shown in bed with a naked woman falls into my definition of "strongly implied". It's like the creators were trying ay too hard to get the point across that Clint banged that chick. All they had to do is show them waking up in bed together (naked, but covered by the bed sheets) and then show them dressed (or partly dressed) in the next panel.

**Darthfury78** · 11-26-2012, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Blade X

And clearly you don't understand the meaning of the words "STRONGLY IMPLIED". Having Hawkeye walk around and fight bad guys butt naked right after being shown in bed with a naked woman falls into my definition of "strongly implied". It's like the creators were trying ay too hard to get the point across that Clint banged that chick. All they had to do is show them waking up in bed together (naked, but covered by the bed sheets) and then show them dressed (or partly dressed) in the next panel.

Imagine seeing this similar scene with Spider-Man x Mystique in the same bed together?