Hawkeye #4 *Spoilers*

[FriendRoss]

i just love that madame masque wears a corset and thigh highs under her "costume"


great book... a fun time had by all

[1derer]

Much of the US media since the 1980s has strongly attached mass murder to masculinity. Real Men kill, because they are hard men doing hard things real hard.

This is ridiculous.

Killing and Masculinity were hugely associated in films of the 1940's and 1950's, and the idea of female killers was a subversion because of killings association with masculinity. The late 1970's started to introduce films which deconstructed the art of murder, and in the 1990's people like Tarantino took things further by making murder an explicitly unremarkable action. The 1990's also saw large scale entrance of women into real life combat positions into real-life armed-forces, reflecting a broader loosening of the idea that killing was a masculine job. Female characters who kill are now relatively common heroes in fiction, without the female/kill combination containing a hint of gender subversiveness.

By this point in fiction, a character committing murder has less to do with masculinity than it EVER has previously.

[Free-Man]

yeah that was weird, and Fraction can get lazy since he did the exact same thing with Pepper in Iron Man not too long ago. And why does MM have 2 masks and was wearing garters and fishnets under her costume? Seems like it'd be uncomfortable lol

I thought Kate might have brought her own mask. But then again if she brought her own mask I guess she could have brought her own costume. But then the artist wouldn't have gotten a chance to draw Masque in her skivvies.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Much of the US media since the 1980s has strongly attached mass murder to masculinity. Real Men kill, because they are hard men doing hard things real hard. This has been hammered with enough force and repeated long enough that a male hero who doesn't kill looks like a sissy, not a Real Man -- barring a gimmick (such as Batman and guns).

While that may be true, I don't believe the willingness to murder and masculinity go hand in hand at all. I understand the sheep thinking that though. It just contradicts his character too much for me to accept it.

And heroes don't exactly need to be masculine, just heroic. Look at Spider-man. And it is possible to be masculine without killing anyone. Not everyone has to be Wolverine.

Again, who has Clint killed outside the Skrull Invasion?

Apparently he assassinated someone in issue #4. Though I'm still pretty skeptical about it. Like I said on page one, I think it's a ruse. I'm speaking hypothetically, I'll be disappointed if it's confirmed.

[Ghostwise]

This is ridiculous.

You certainly know how to entice strangers into discussing with you.

[1derer]

You certainly know how to entice strangers into discussing with you.

What can I say? I tend to be blunt when people make assertions that would have very important implications if they were true, but are in fact demonstrably untrue. The idea that the media has continuously advanced the idea of killing as a masculine or a trait of "real men" is one of those types of assertions.

[Ghostwise]

What can I say? I tend to be blunt when people make assertions that would have very important implications if they were true, but are in fact demonstrably untrue. The idea that the media has continuously advanced the idea of killing as a masculine or a trait of "real men" is one of those types of assertions.

I started my reasoning in the 1980s for a reason - which in itself means that I made no assertion about things being continuous. But since you're clearly not looking for a discussion, let's forget about it so people can talk about Hawkeye #4, eh ?

[1derer]

I started my reasoning in the 1980s for a reason - which in itself means that I made no assertion about things being continuous. But since you're clearly not looking for a discussion, let's forget about it so people can talk about Hawkeye #4, eh ?

Okie-doke.

[pharoahe22]

I disagree with you here. I think the fact he died twice has absolutely no effect on his sudden disregard to human life. In fact, I'd argue that it would only strengthen his views against ending someone's life. And when you look at how many heroes have come back to life and have NOT changed their code of ethics, it puts Hawkeye's sudden change into question. And simply assuming it's changed him isn't good enough for me. If it did, it's up to the writers to prove it. One simple, well written monologue is all it takes.

And you can call him not wanting to kill anyone absurd, but keep in mind Earth's greatest marksman doesn't have to resort to killing when he's able to hit any pressure point on the human body with the flick of his finger. Also keep in mind that if this development turns out to be what it looks like, the fact he's become a SHIELD assassin, let alone agent, is a stretch in itself.

I understand your point of view, but I don't think that Clint has a sudden disregard for life. We don't just see him killing everyone in sight. And I didn't say that him not wanting to kill anyone was absurd. I said that it's absurd to think that Clint would never be in a situation where he would have to kill...whether he wanted to or not. If this was real life instead of a comic book and Clint was in a situation where he was completely surrounded by armed gunman, there's no way in hell that he would make it out of that alive without killing or seriously maiming a few people. He's not going to be able to shoot pressure points on a room filled with gunman with a thousand bullets flying around his head. That would be superhuman, and Clint's not superhuman...he's just the world's best marksman. He's fighting monsters and Gods and Doctor Dooms and hand ninjas and all kinds of crazy foes. I'm saying that it's absurd that a regular human would never have to resort to lethal methods to survive when continuously put in those types of situations. Like it's crazy when people say that Cap never killed in WWII and things like that. I can suspend belief in comics for certain things but not for things like that.

And we'll see what happened as far as the tape is concerned. If it was an extreme situation that required that type of action, then I have no problem with Hawkeye doing a hit for S.H.I.E.L.D. They're a global peace-keeping agency. If they felt that an assassination was necessary, then more than likely it was. The Marvel and DC universes get a little ridiculous at times. You have characters like Carnage who will escape from prison and kill 100 people. Then he gets locked up and escapes again and kills 200 people. Then he gets locked up and escapes yet again and kills another 300 people. At what point do you just say "enough is enough"? This could be one of those types of situations...and I'd have no problem with Clint doing a hit if it was.

As for the other point that you made, I think it is completely unrealistic for a character to return from death exactly the same way as they were before. So the instances that you mentioned where a character came back and nothing changed about their morals, train of thought, etc...that seems absurd to me as well. I'd assume that none of these characters liked dying...so if certain practices lead to you eventually dying a violent death, you'd think they'd change those practices in certain situations.

[Deus ex Chris]

This book is my favorite from Marvel these days. It's nice to see it hold up without Aja, who is the main draw for me. Fraction's found his book, and I'm pretty pleased with it. I do have to say that as much as I'm enjoying his Clint, Kate's stealing the show. He's really making her work.

[1derer]

How much time has passed since this series began?

My (probably wrong) take: is that issue 2 is set around when Clint is put in charge of the Secret Avengers, and now it seems like Kate is talking about something to do with the YA.

"I had some stuff, my guys and me."

Issue 1 would have started shortly before the present in "Marvel time", and issue 4 takes place during an initial part of YA... And we don't know where YA fits yet in continuity.

We know that Gillen and Fraction have co-ordinated the stories so they don't conflict, so is this pretty big foreshadowing to someone doing some killing?

This book is my favorite from Marvel these days. It's nice to see it hold up without Aja, who is the main draw for me. Fraction's found his book, and I'm pretty pleased with it. I do have to say that as much as I'm enjoying his Clint, Kate's stealing the show. He's really making her work.

I agree that Kate's stealing the show... I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel has noticed the positive fan response to her portrayal in the book. Fraction writes her brilliantly.

[Prince Of Orphans]

I understand your point of view, but I don't think that Clint has a sudden disregard for life.

He offed that skrull pretty fast I'd say.

We don't just see him killing everyone in sight. And I didn't say that him not wanting to kill anyone was absurd. I said that it's absurd to think that Clint would never be in a situation where he would have to kill...whether he wanted to or not. If this was real life instead of a comic book and Clint was in a situation where he was completely surrounded by armed gunman, there's no way in hell that he would make it out of that alive without killing or seriously maiming a few people. He's not going to be able to shoot pressure points on a room filled with gunman with a thousand bullets flying around his head. That would be superhuman, and Clint's not superhuman...he's just the world's best marksman.

The great thing about comic books is that they aren't real life. If this was real life, there wouldn't be a guy with metal claws retracting out of his hands, a Norse God who controls thunder, or a skinny kid from Brooklyn who takes a serum and transforms into a super-soldier. So I'm not sure where reading comics and expecting believability comes into play. At all. Especially when it comes into question whether the world's greatest marksman can disarm a bunch of baddies with guns.

And as for he's JUST the world's best marksman, I think it goes a long way. Perfect aim may not sound like much, but it's definitely an asset when considering how easily disarming people would be with that. Also, you can't just put him in a hypothetical situation he's never been in, and form it in a way that would support your argument.

And we'll see what happened as far as the tape is concerned. If it was an extreme situation that required that type of action, then I have no problem with Hawkeye doing a hit for S.H.I.E.L.D. They're a global peace-keeping agency. If they felt that an assassination was necessary, then more than likely it was.

The problem with that is he was NEVER an assassin, let alone working for SHIELD. Not until the movie anyways. Not until he put on the movie suit. See what I'm getting at? How do you expect Clint, who has always been not only anti-killing, but anti-establishment as well, to assassinate someone for SHIELD? It doesn't stay true to the character. And besides, out of all the hundreds of characters who are assassins, SHIELD picks the guy with hardly any spy experience to kill the world's most wanted fugitive? Not Bucky. Not Black Widow. Clint. The same Clint who not too long ago, was wearing a purple costume with purple boots. It's hard to make the argument that Marvel isn;t pushing 616 Clint to be like his movie counterpart, especially if this tape turns out to be legit

And as for it being one of those situations where he had to kill, look at the first panel of the book. If the tape is legitimate, he popped the guy in his eyes with his pants literally down, probably in the middle of bedding the two women standing next to him.

As for the other point that you made, I think it is completely unrealistic for a character to return from death exactly the same way as they were before. So the instances that you mentioned where a character came back and nothing changed about their morals, train of thought, etc...that seems absurd to me as well. I'd assume that none of these characters liked dying...so if certain practices lead to you eventually dying a violent death, you'd think they'd change those practices in certain situations.

Show me one other character who has returned from death and has completely changed their morals other than Clint has. Other than their death and resurrection being part of their actual origin, they aren't any I could think of.

The situation the character was under at the time was unique. Writers obviously couldn't utilize him the way he was meant to, so they changed the fundamentals of the character. All of a sudden, thanks to the movie, he's marketable.

[pepper]

Was there actually story about death changing him or is this just a fan explanation?

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Was there actually story about death changing him or is this just a fan explanation?

Fan explanation of yet another random Bendis character change.

Regarding this issue, Palido is not comparable to Aja. I would have went with Marcos Martin or Samnee since Daredevil has that same "flat retro" artistic look. But I can't wait for Aja to come back I love that guy.

The story was good and I can't wait for the conclusion. I wanted to be mad that yet again it's Kate that comes and saves the day from the incompetent Hawkeye (who hasn't had a win yet) but I really, really think that this is all a set-up and a ruse. Hawkeye let himself be compromised and this time Kate messed things up. I also don't think it shows Hawkeye killing after he had that "we don't kill" statement in Hawkeye #2. This is what second acts are for people, so don't get so up-in-arms until the story is finished.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Fan explanation of yet another random Bendis character change.

Regarding this issue, Palido is not comparable to Aja. I would have went with Marcos Martin or Samnee since Daredevil has that same "flat retro" artistic look. But I can't wait for Aja to come back I love that guy.

The story was good and I can't wait for the conclusion. I wanted to be mad that yet again it's Kate that comes and saves the day from the incompetent Hawkeye (who hasn't had a win yet) but I really, really think that this is all a set-up and a ruse. Hawkeye let himself be compromised and this time Kate messed things up. I also don't think it shows Hawkeye killing after he had that "we don't kill" statement in Hawkeye #2. This is what second acts are for people, so don't get so up-in-arms until the story is finished.

I've expressed the same belief that this is a ruse, my argumetns in regards to what happened are purely hypothetical under the assumption it's true. It's likely just a ploy to get a bunch of criminals together for a big SHIELD ambush. I've just expressed concern that this might not be the case, simply because you just never know for sure, but it's probably just Fraction wanting to generate buzz, and judging by the 7 pages of this thread, it's done its job.