Hawkeye #4 *Spoilers*

**Will.S** · 11-22-2012, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Desaad

The similarities are there, but they're largely tonal. They're both fun, often tongue-in-cheek, character-centric street level books that are hugely dependent on the art for their value.

I don't know if I'd say hugely dependent, Waid's DD book tends to have very good scripts already so the art just executes the story very well.

In Hawkeye's case Aja's art is great but Fraction and Aja are just a winning combination on both ends the same way that Fraction and Bá are on Casanova.

**ImmortalIronFist** · 11-22-2012, 04:57 PM

I love this book so much.

**strathcona** · 11-22-2012, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostwise

The book has a lot of style, but so far I've found it a bit.. empty. As if the authors were working very hard to achieve a specific movie-like aesthetic and had little time left for story and character dev.

I can see that, and mostly agree. I like the book (mostly), but it really does feel like Fraction is just trying too hard to me. Other comments from this thred:

-Yes, I can easily see the comparison to Daredevil.
-As soon as Hawkeye pushed the lady out of the way to get into the cab, I KNEW that she was Kate. It just seemed blatantly obvious to me. Though I didn't think she was Madame Masque until the very end.
-Hawkeye. Does. Not. Kill. That is the character I love. So I hope (and think it will be revealed) that the tape is a ruse of some sort. It really, really bothers me that Hawkeye has been shown killing/threatening to kill/maiming so often in recent years. That is not the character I want. Anyone who says that the old Hawkeye was silly, doesn't know the character... and I really have a hard time appreciating your opinion, because it generally shows that your idea of a hero is so fundamentally different than mine.
-The opening scene on the rooftop and the credit card retrieval scene both really didn't work for me. The first was just badly done, and the second was too immature and obvious to me.

**Zagreus** · 11-22-2012, 06:15 PM

See, I just fundamentally get this "Superheroes don't kill" stuff. It was mandated by Frederik Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent" book and all of a sudden, all of comic books had to be PG rated, and those tropes stuck with us for years. But earliest Superheroes, including Superman and Batman, certainly did kill, on occasion. Now, that writers can do what they want, this stuff doesn't make sense. When I watch a movie, if it was about a vigilante archer I would expect him to damn well kill someone with an arrow on occasion. And I, for one, am glad of it. I don't think it should be all killing, all the time. But I don't like this PG stuff, Comic code Sanctioned BS that writers had to justify somehow. It's gone, and it's not coming back.

**1derer** · 11-22-2012, 09:22 PM

Another thing I've realized is that the woman Clint steals the cab from is wearing purple pants. Great foreshadowing by Hollingsworth for the later reveal that the woman was Kate.

**Prince Of Orphans** · 11-22-2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Zagreus

See, I just fundamentally get this "Superheroes don't kill" stuff. It was mandated by Frederik Wertham's "Seduction of the Innocent" book and all of a sudden, all of comic books had to be PG rated, and those tropes stuck with us for years. But earliest Superheroes, including Superman and Batman, certainly did kill, on occasion. Now, that writers can do what they want, this stuff doesn't make sense. When I watch a movie, if it was about a vigilante archer I would expect him to damn well kill someone with an arrow on occasion. And I, for one, am glad of it. I don't think it should be all killing, all the time. But I don't like this PG stuff, Comic code Sanctioned BS that writers had to justify somehow. It's gone, and it's not coming back.

It's not so much the PG mandates I care for. It was part of the character, always was, until writers decided he'd be cooler if he killed a few people, just like the movies. That's the problem I suppose, I like my comics separate from the movies. Just as I like the heroes I read about. the ones who are traditionally against killing, not go around killing anyone.

You'd think someone with perfect aim and reflexes would be able to find ways around killing folks.

**Ghostwise** · 11-23-2012, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans

It's not so much the PG mandates I care for. It was part of the character, always was, until writers decided he'd be cooler if he killed a few people, just like the movies. That's the problem I suppose, I like my comics separate from the movies. Just as I like the heroes I read about. the ones who are traditionally against killing, not go around killing anyone.

Much of the US media since the 1980s has strongly attached mass murder to masculinity. Real Men kill, because they are hard men doing hard things real hard. This has been hammered with enough force and repeated long enough that a male hero who doesn't kill looks like a sissy, not a Real Man -- barring a gimmick (such as Batman and guns).

**scotcat** · 11-23-2012, 02:24 AM

This title is just ridiculously good fun. I love it. The writing and art are both spot on - fraction and Aja are a great team in my opinion.

**Timmy** · 11-23-2012, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans

It's not so much the PG mandates I care for. It was part of the character, always was, until writers decided he'd be cooler if he killed a few people, just like the movies. That's the problem I suppose, I like my comics separate from the movies. Just as I like the heroes I read about. the ones who are traditionally against killing, not go around killing anyone.

You'd think someone with perfect aim and reflexes would be able to find ways around killing folks.

Again, who has Clint killed outside the Skrull Invasion?

**okpanic** · 11-23-2012, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by strathcona

Anyone who says that the old Hawkeye was silly, doesn't know the character... and I really have a hard time appreciating your opinion, because it generally shows that your idea of a hero is so fundamentally different than mine.

Well, yeah. People are bound to have different opinions, especially when it comes to morality - as do writers.
Honestly I can't say I care whether he killed somebody or he didn't. There's more to the character for me than where he draws his personal line, and I don't tend to project my personal beliefs on the matter into a work of fiction.

Beyond that though, would it be a big surprise if he did kill somebody? He's been shown going through Kree and Skrulls like a woodchipper in the past.

Whether he did or didn't, it's still a great read. Characters need to evolve somehow - not saying having them being an amoral hitman is the answer, but people need to understand that a character can't retread forever.

**Michael P** · 11-23-2012, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Timmy

Again, who has Clint killed outside the Skrull Invasion?

Egghead, for one.

Oh, wait, that was back in 1983.

**Michael P** · 11-23-2012, 06:10 AM

I also like how Marvel decided to change Hawkeye to make him more like the movies 4 years before the movie came out. I guess Kang helped them with that one, the fiend.

**Ghostwise** · 11-23-2012, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Michael P

Egghead, for one.

Oh, wait, that was back in 1983.

And it was an accident.

**strathcona** · 11-23-2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Prince Of Orphans

It's not so much the PG mandates I care for. It was part of the character, always was, until writers decided he'd be cooler if he killed a few people, just like the movies. That's the problem I suppose, I like my comics separate from the movies. Just as I like the heroes I read about. the ones who are traditionally against killing, not go around killing anyone.

You'd think someone with perfect aim and reflexes would be able to find ways around killing folks.

Completely agree with this, but it's also this:

Originally Posted by Ghostwise

Much of the US media since the 1980s has strongly attached mass murder to masculinity. Real Men kill, because they are hard men doing hard things real hard. This has been hammered with enough force and repeated long enough that a male hero who doesn't kill looks like a sissy, not a Real Man -- barring a gimmick (such as Batman and guns).

I just don't see why a character needs to kill in order to be considered cool. I always appreciated that Hawkeye, Captain America and other heroes found a better way than killing. It made them more heroic, and better than the villains. Changing it so that these heroes kill, just seems like the writers aren't good enough to write characters like that, so they just fall back on killing because it's easier, and cooler.

All of that said, I do think we are going to find out the tape does not contain Hawkeye killing anyone. But I still did not like his cavalier attitude towards killing Skrulls, or maiming henchmen.

**terri100** · 11-23-2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Free-Man

Fraction did it before?

The only odd part to be honest was that it looked like Kate somehow taped over the mask?

yeah that was weird, and Fraction can get lazy since he did the exact same thing with Pepper in Iron Man not too long ago. And why does MM have 2 masks and was wearing garters and fishnets under her costume? Seems like it'd be uncomfortable lol