Kingdom Come or Dark Knight Returns?

[Mat001]

That's why I said people misunderstand the whole point of the book and only see the surface. Kurosawa missed the whole point of the fight and refuses to accept the truth.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Yes, Snyder's love of DKR makes me not trust him in directing a Superman movie. That and his movies are pretty shallow and I doubt he's capable of understanding what Superman is all about.

And yes, anyone who defends DKR doesn't get Superman or they wouldn't defend it.

Ah, the "true fan" argument.

It never fails to, well, fail to convince me of anything.

[Mat001]

Okay, let's get this out of the way.


"The most questionable thing I did was make Superman a government agent. If this had been a Superman story, I'd never have done that - and I know that, because I have a Superman story I want to tell someday. In this story, Batman was the hero, so the world was built around him."

--Frank Miller interview, Wizard Magazine #64, December 1996.

That doesn't mean that Miller hated Superman. In fact, he once wore Superman pajamas under his clothes to school, for a time. Not to mention that he wrote "Superman: The Secret Years" before he did "The Dark Knight Returns". So when he wrote this, he didn't hate Superman.

[Kurosawa]

Okay, let's get this out of the way.


"The most questionable thing I did was make Superman a government agent. If this had been a Superman story, I'd never have done that - and I know that, because I have a Superman story I want to tell someday. In this story, Batman was the hero, so the world was built around him."

--Frank Miller interview, Wizard Magazine #64, December 1996.

That doesn't mean that Miller hated Superman. In fact, he once wore Superman pajamas under his clothes to school, for a time. Not to mention that he wrote "Superman: The Secret Years" before he did "The Dark Knight Returns". So when he wrote this, he didn't hate Superman.

I have you on ignore but I noticed and have to correct you here: he did not write Superman: The Secret Years, he only did covers for it. Bob Rozakis wrote the series.

[Kurosawa]

He didn't even lose. He got hit a few times, after being hit by an ICBM and then... Batman had a heart attack.

You don't win a fight by having a heart attack. At best, you accept your TKO like a man.

I care less about Superman losing the physical fight and more about how the series present Superman as losing the ethical fight. Superman has lost his share of fights, but he does not and should not lose many ethical disputes. One can debate who is right and wrong in their dispute in DKR, but the book sympathizes with Batman and portrays Superman as a complete sell-out and literally as a pet to Reagan.

I see most Miller defenders don't address how he portrayed Dick Grayson, which is amusing but I'm sure they can come up with some convoluted bs if needed.

[T Hedge Coke]

I care less about Superman losing the physical fight and more about how the series present Superman as losing the ethical fight. Superman has lost his share of fights, but he does not and should not lose many ethical disputes. One can debate who is right and wrong in their dispute in DKR, but the book sympathizes with Batman and portrays Superman as a complete sell-out and literally as a pet to Reagan.

I see most Miller defenders don't address how he portrayed Dick Grayson, which is amusing but I'm sure they can come up with some convoluted bs if needed.

It's not a Dick Grayson thread, is it?

I was going to address the fact Superman doesn't even lose the ideological battle, since his position is trying to make peace between everyone and in the end, with Bruce going underground, got just what he'd been asking of him before their fight anyway. But, you know, that's just me BSing or whatever.

[Coal Tiger]

It's not a Dick Grayson thread, is it?

I was going to address the fact Superman doesn't even lose the ideological battle, since his position is trying to make peace between everyone and in the end, with Bruce going underground, got just what he'd been asking of him before their fight anyway. But, you know, that's just me BSing or whatever.

His position is placating the government when it should be standing up for truth and justice.

[T Hedge Coke]

His position is placating the government when it should be standing up for truth and justice.

Maybe making peace between everyone as best he can is how he sees standing up for truth and justice?

As opposed to getting a gang of violent thugs together on horseback to "justice" a city nobody asked him to?

Regardless, he does win, in the end, in that he gets what he asked of Bruce in the first place. It's Bruce who changes his MO there, not Superman. Superman wasn't playing the government's game or Bruce's, he was in the middle, but he was still his own man. And he gets what he wanted by the end.

[Aquacatlungfish]

I care less about Superman losing the physical fight and more about how the series present Superman as losing the ethical fight. Superman has lost his share of fights, but he does not and should not lose many ethical disputes. One can debate who is right and wrong in their dispute in DKR, but the book sympathizes with Batman and portrays Superman as a complete sell-out and literally as a pet to Reagan.

I see most Miller defenders don't address how he portrayed Dick Grayson, which is amusing but I'm sure they can come up with some convoluted bs if needed.

ASBAR #9 was Dick Grayson's finest hour.

[Kurosawa]

It's not a Dick Grayson thread, is it?

I was going to address the fact Superman doesn't even lose the ideological battle, since his position is trying to make peace between everyone and in the end, with Bruce going underground, got just what he'd been asking of him before their fight anyway. But, you know, that's just me BSing or whatever.

Pretty much, yes it is. Too bad you don't respect Siegel and Shuster and their creation like you do Frank Miller.

ASBAR #9 was Dick Grayson's finest hour.

That piece of crap is one of the most disgusting comics ever printed and is a pure insult to John Broome and Gil Kane.

[T Hedge Coke]

Pretty much, yes it is. Too bad you don't respect Siegel and Shuster and their creation like you do Frank Miller.



That piece of crap is one of the most disgusting comics ever printed and is a pure insult to John Broome and Gil Kane.

You're just all kinds of presumptuous, ain't you?

[stk]

ASBAR #9 was Dick Grayson's finest hour.

By no possible standard is that the case.

[jsf]

Which do you prefer? I want to know whether Kingdom Come is more than the Superman version of it.

Kingdom Come. Better story; better art; and definitely a better grasp of who Superman is.

[Drz]

You're just all kinds of presumptuous, ain't you?

So much he got permabanned from another forum.

[Kurosawa]

So much he got permabanned from another forum.

Yes, apparently being honest is that terrible a thing.

Long story, but the guy who did it pretty much baited me by blasting Hawkman every chance he got. I was stupid to fall for it.