View Poll Results: Which Story Is Better as a Whole?

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  • Dark Knight Returns

    25 40.32%
  • Kingdom Come

    37 59.68%
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  1. #61
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    I agree that the art of DKSA is very bad but it still tells a better story that Ross'.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Just finished Kingdom Come for the upteenth time and each of the big three come off as a bit tarnished.

    WW is severe, Bats is sanctimonius, and Supes is indecisive.

    Really inspiring stuff, the problem I had with Superman being manhandled by Marvel seems petty now. His goal to redeem Captain Marvel is powerful stuff.

    Love the extra scenes at Planet Krypton. Superman seems square but no longer lost.

    May try to fit TDKR this weekend if life allows!

  3. #63
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I swear I did not say that.
    Sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish
    Unless you are approaching Rob Liefeld or David Finch levels, there is nothing wrong about making superheroes look big and muscley, for some characters like Batman and Green Arrow it's necessary. Drawing Superheroes like sculptures works because they are like gods. Ross' style takes me out despite it being well painted. Also his personality pisses me off.
    Superheroes didn't always look like that. That's what Ross missed about guys like Wayne Boring, early 60's Curt Swan and Dick Sprang. Artists who made their men look natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by T. Hedge Cooke
    I'm sorry, but that version of Superman is just plain ugly. What he did in the mid 80's worked because it looked regal and majestic. Here, it looks like a poor imitation of Darwyn Cooke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010
    Just finished Kingdom Come for the upteenth time and each of the big three come off as a bit tarnished.

    WW is severe, Bats is sanctimonius, and Supes is indecisive.
    That's the point. They had changed so much in ten years, that they're not the same as they were. Diana embraced her warrior side. Clark's wavering uncertainty about his actions only really come up when someone calls him out on it. Bruce, well, he's always sanctimonious.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    Just finished Kingdom Come for the upteenth time and each of the big three come off as a bit tarnished.

    WW is severe, Bats is sanctimonius, and Supes is indecisive.

    Really inspiring stuff, the problem I had with Superman being manhandled by Marvel seems petty now. His goal to redeem Captain Marvel is powerful stuff.

    Love the extra scenes at Planet Krypton. Superman seems square but no longer lost.

    May try to fit TDKR this weekend if life allows!
    To be fair to Batman, he is morally superior to both of them in the story.

  5. #65
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    It's interesting to note, while DKR & KC may portray versions of Superman that don't seem quite 'right', these versions still work, unlike the versions currently being offered by DC IMO. This thread got me thinking; 2 of the most historic comix tales ever told don't truly portray the Man of Steel correctly, and DC hasn't been able to put together a solid run of Superman tales in a very long time. What exactly is the problem with telling great Superman stories? The Superman prototype has been succesfully (and unsuccessfully) used by other companies, Invincible (Superman's son) & Irredeemable are 2 of many examples. Is the problem the specific character of Superman? I'm wondering if it's possible that Superman, may be TOO childish a concept. I've GOT to be wrong, right? But than why has DC had such a lousy run with him for so long? Maybe the task is too daunting, something akin to trying to make Bugs Bunny modern and edgy. DC's attempts at making successful Superman tales feels like the NY Jets attempts to be a successful football team!!;) It'll be interesting to see what DC will do if the new Superman movie tanks!

  6. #66
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    Maybe it's just your tastes that's the problem.

  7. #67
    Senior Member clownprince01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    Just finished Kingdom Come for the upteenth time and each of the big three come off as a bit tarnished.

    WW is severe, Bats is sanctimonius, and Supes is indecisive.
    That's what I love about it. Waid and Ross could've made the story simply about how great the old guard is, and while they're clearly better than Magog and his lot, they are all still deeply flawed. And the idea that Bruce and Clark both take on he professions of their fathers at the end is a lovely concept.

    Though I think Waid himself admitted he wasn't sure how to write Wonder Woman so she just by default turned into a brutal warrior to contrast with Superman. But I think it works in context. But I know many Wonder Woman fans hate it. In fact, I think there was a thread on that not too long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    I just can't understand how this is the same artist. I'm glad you like to art but I find it just plain ugly to look at. And this is one of the better pages.
    Your name is Kal-El. You are the only survivor of the planet Krypton. Even though you've been raised as a human being, you are not one of them
    JOR-EL

  8. #68
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chazro View Post
    This thread got me thinking; 2 of the most historic comix tales ever told don't truly portray the Man of Steel correctly,
    People throw out the word "correctly" way too easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownprince01 View Post
    But I know many Wonder Woman fans hate it.
    Many Wonder Woman fans hate anything and everything.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    I love both Kingdom Come and DKR, albeit for very different reasons.

    DKR is an awesome Batman book, with excellent interpretations of Batman, Jim Gordon, Two-Face, and The Joker. I also really liked the female Robin in the book, and the unique dystopian problems presented in the book. However, as much as I love DKR, it just drips with seething contempt for Superman, which I view as the one sad stain on an otherwise outstanding book.

    Kingdom Come is a fascinating read, that I think does a great job of humanizing many of the key DC characters. Yes, Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman are all deeply flawed in this book. At the same time, they're still real heroes (although I'll grant you that Wonder Woman really does skirt the line here, so I can see why her biggest fans wouldn't like KC). KC managed to make these characters more interesting without losing core, important aspects of their characters (i.e. such as Batman and Superman's great desire to prevent needless deaths and never take lives themselves). Also, KC manages to show Batman and Superman at odds with one another in a compelling way that I can easily buy into. There's ambiguity in their conflict, unlike in DKR where Batman's perspective is so dominant that Superman doesn't really get a fair shake, imo.


    So while I like both books, KC Superman vs. DKR Superman isn't even a contest for me. You can tell that the people behind KC Superman at least like the character. You can tell that they're trying to present the character in a compelling, nuanced, and considerate way intended to make him sympathetic; humanizing the great larger-than-life hero. But as for DKR Superman... I'm sorry, but after reading that a few times, I have a really hard time thinking that Miller doesn't outright loath Superman. Every last piece of Batman narration pertaining to Superman in DKR is just dripping with contempt. Batman has nothing but insults and criticisms for The Man of Steel in this book. Batman having serious differences with and issues with Superman makes sense. Like we see in KC. But in KC, I get the sense that Batman at least respects Superman as a person, as a man, as a long-time ally of the past. DKR Batman doesn't give me that feeling at all. Just pure resentment.

    Truth be told, I think much of Superman's "image problems" over the past few decades or so is due to the fallout of DKR. DKR's Superman reinforced every negative impression of Superman out there (unthinking boy scout, American stooge, simple-minded authoritarian, "Lawful Good" to a fault). As much good as DKR did for Batman it did equal harm to Superman, harm that I don't think Superman has ever fully recovered from. KC Superman is at least a reflective, thoughtful man who carefully considers his options and doesn't act impulsively (we see this in how KC Superman objects to Wonder Woman's increasingly violent/harsh methods). Whereas DKR Superman is basically Ronald Reagan's puppet...

    DKR Superman is still a hero, but he comes off as very, very lame. A hero with a good heart, but a hard head.


    Sorry for the rant, but this is something I've felt for a long time, and I felt this thread was the perfect place to express it.
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  10. #70
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    The point I was trying to communicate, posting the pages, wasn't just the art, but what he's doing, what he's saying, as well. There's nothing "stooge" or "unthinking" about any of those pages or that portrayal of Superman. He's thinking differently than our protagonist, yes, but he's not being treated as an idiot.

    Even the one that's been reposted a couple times, look at what situation he's in and how he's responding to it. If he fights, Braniac will kill ten million people. So Superman says, okeh, he won't run, and he won't fight. He'll stand there and take the hit to save ten million innocent people.

    That's not "I hate Superman, he's a dumb-dumb!" narrative. That's Superman being caring, and sensible, and for my money, cool. Even if you don't like the way it's drawn, I don't know how anyone can read that and think it's making Superman look stupid or a stooge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
    A hero with a good heart, but a hard head.

    That's Batman, in DKR, too. Or Green Arrow.

    Really, that's most Miller people, period. He really likes the idea that people are too stubborn for their own good. (And, really, most of us probably are.) The biggest shift in Miller's Batman from Year One through to DKSA is that it's only really by DKSA that he's willing to take someone else's advice and run with it counter to his own gut instinct.
    Last edited by T Hedge Coke; 11-25-2012 at 12:29 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    The point I was trying to communicate, posting the pages, wasn't just the art, but what he's doing, what he's saying, as well. There's nothing "stooge" or "unthinking" about any of those pages or that portrayal of Superman. He's thinking differently than our protagonist, yes, but he's not being treated as an idiot.

    Even the one that's been reposted a couple times, look at what situation he's in and how he's responding to it. If he fights, Braniac will kill ten million people. So Superman says, okeh, he won't run, and he won't fight. He'll stand there and take the hit to save ten million innocent people.

    That's not "I hate Superman, he's a dumb-dumb!" narrative. That's Superman being caring, and sensible, and for my money, cool. Even if you don't like the way it's drawn, I don't know how anyone can read that and think it's making Superman look stupid or a stooge.
    Good luck talking to a brick wall. A brick wall that has had almost 30 years to let the cement harden. Asking people to take a fresh look at something they've written off years ago and reevaluate the possibly misguided notions they've held onto for so many years is not likely to bear much fruit.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    Good luck talking to a brick wall. A brick wall that has had almost 30 years to let the cement harden. Asking people to take a fresh look at something they've written off years ago and reevaluate the possibly misguided notions they've held onto for so many years is not likely to bear much fruit.
    Not to mention people blaming it for all of Superman's problems (ie popularity) for decades to come

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Not to mention people blaming it for all of Superman's problems (ie popularity) for decades to come
    What's ironic is that the complaints about the public's perception of Superman that angry fans like to lay at DKR's feet all stem from the monthly Superman/Action comics that predate DKR. It's like blaming Christopher Nolan for Tommy Lee Jones' Two-Face portrayal.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
    I love both Kingdom Come and DKR, albeit for very different reasons.

    DKR is an awesome Batman book, with excellent interpretations of Batman, Jim Gordon, Two-Face, and The Joker. I also really liked the female Robin in the book, and the unique dystopian problems presented in the book. However, as much as I love DKR, it just drips with seething contempt for Superman, which I view as the one sad stain on an otherwise outstanding book.

    Kingdom Come is a fascinating read, that I think does a great job of humanizing many of the key DC characters. Yes, Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman are all deeply flawed in this book. At the same time, they're still real heroes (although I'll grant you that Wonder Woman really does skirt the line here, so I can see why her biggest fans wouldn't like KC). KC managed to make these characters more interesting without losing core, important aspects of their characters (i.e. such as Batman and Superman's great desire to prevent needless deaths and never take lives themselves). Also, KC manages to show Batman and Superman at odds with one another in a compelling way that I can easily buy into. There's ambiguity in their conflict, unlike in DKR where Batman's perspective is so dominant that Superman doesn't really get a fair shake, imo.


    So while I like both books, KC Superman vs. DKR Superman isn't even a contest for me. You can tell that the people behind KC Superman at least like the character. You can tell that they're trying to present the character in a compelling, nuanced, and considerate way intended to make him sympathetic; humanizing the great larger-than-life hero. But as for DKR Superman... I'm sorry, but after reading that a few times, I have a really hard time thinking that Miller doesn't outright loath Superman. Every last piece of Batman narration pertaining to Superman in DKR is just dripping with contempt. Batman has nothing but insults and criticisms for The Man of Steel in this book. Batman having serious differences with and issues with Superman makes sense. Like we see in KC. But in KC, I get the sense that Batman at least respects Superman as a person, as a man, as a long-time ally of the past. DKR Batman doesn't give me that feeling at all. Just pure resentment.

    Truth be told, I think much of Superman's "image problems" over the past few decades or so is due to the fallout of DKR. DKR's Superman reinforced every negative impression of Superman out there (unthinking boy scout, American stooge, simple-minded authoritarian, "Lawful Good" to a fault). As much good as DKR did for Batman it did equal harm to Superman, harm that I don't think Superman has ever fully recovered from. KC Superman is at least a reflective, thoughtful man who carefully considers his options and doesn't act impulsively (we see this in how KC Superman objects to Wonder Woman's increasingly violent/harsh methods). Whereas DKR Superman is basically Ronald Reagan's puppet...

    DKR Superman is still a hero, but he comes off as very, very lame. A hero with a good heart, but a hard head.


    Sorry for the rant, but this is something I've felt for a long time, and I felt this thread was the perfect place to express it.
    Superman isn't as popular as Batman because people liked edgy heroes back in the 90s, not because Frank Miller said so. Just look how well Spawn sold.

  15. #75
    Junior Member TheDarkNut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Superman isn't as popular as Batman because people liked edgy heroes back in the 90s, not because Frank Miller said so. Just look how well Spawn sold.
    Well, the 90's is gone. What's stopping Supe now?

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