Kingdom Come or Dark Knight Returns?

[Mr. Holmes]

They're not fat. They're not sculpted, steroid freaks that most artists draw. Ross draws his characters as people who get in shape without all those fine details.

I swear I did not say that.

[Aquacatlungfish]

If we're going that route, Superman's not the one who gave the powers-that-be a signal to call him.

It's a futuristic elseworld story, you pick and chose elements you like (or in this case, dislike) and if they fit the tone in the story you're telling.

[Aquacatlungfish]

They're not fat. They're not sculpted, steroid freaks that most artists draw. Ross draws his characters as people who get in shape without all those fine details.

Unless you are approaching Rob Liefeld or David Finch levels, there is nothing wrong about making superheroes look big and muscley, for some characters like Batman and Green Arrow it's necessary. Drawing Superheroes like sculptures works because they are like gods. Ross' style takes me out despite it being well painted. Also his personality pisses me off.

[Coyote2010]

Art not withstanding, and I do think Ross is as terrific an artist as Miller, why do both books present such a conflicted portrait of Superman?

For years I swore Marvels was the superior Ross work because of Superman's troubled take.

Why does TDKR and KC present such troubled portraits of Superman? Batman in both cases comes off as much more centered and self assured. Does Superman just lend himself to irony more than Batman?

[Superlad93]

Art not withstanding, and I do think Ross is as terrific an artist as Miller, why do both books present such a conflicted portrait of Superman?

For years I swore Marvels was the superior Ross work because of Superman's troubled take.

Why does TDKR and KC present such troubled portraits of Superman? Batman in both cases comes off as much more centered and self assured. Does Superman just lend himself to irony more than Batman?

Looking back I actually love the take on Superman that TDKR and part 2. For me it showed a heroes trek trough his darkest hour and how he his revival at the end of it as something new. I respect this. KC had around the same thing but it just didn't feel as bold or passionate to me. In both Superman is a bit unbalance (in some ways) but it's all for the good of the story and what he reps in the story.

But like I said I liked TDKR and DK2 take on Superman because I can see the bigger picture of what he was being used for and I could respect it.

[LoneNecromancer]

Why does TDKR and KC present such troubled portraits of Superman?

Because Supes can't be troubled by any physical threat that isn't at least as powerful as a nuke, so they make his challenges mental and give him internal conflict. New Frontier did the same.

[Aquacatlungfish]

Art not withstanding, and I do think Ross is as terrific an artist as Miller, why do both books present such a conflicted portrait of Superman?

For years I swore Marvels was the superior Ross work because of Superman's troubled take.

Why does TDKR and KC present such troubled portraits of Superman? Batman in both cases comes off as much more centered and self assured. Does Superman just lend himself to irony more than Batman?

Both of them do that to give Superman character arcs throughout the story. Same for Batman in the beginning of DKR and by the end Batman is acting all confident leaving no room for devolpment in DKSA. Supes arc in DKR wasn't completed until DKSA in which he decided to become a facist. Batman wasn't the focus of KC and was there to oppose Supes and complete the vision of "the end of the DCu" it was going for.

[stk]

I like Ross' portrayal of super-heroes as middle aged people in ridiculous costumes because that's what they would look like in real life, and I think it's healthy that we comics fans be forced to face the absolute ridiculousness of these concepts and characters every once in a while.

So his covers, I tend to enjoy. It's just his interior work I can't get into too much. He gets too caught up in detail (at least he did back in the KC days) his panel compositions were a punch in the eye -- too chaotic -- and his sequential storytelling wasn't that strong. That's why he started having people like Braithwaite do his layouts and rough pencils, handling composition and storytelling, so he can focus on the things he excels at: actual painting technique.

And I don't mind the occasional troubled portrait of Superman. The best Superman stories of the entire Silver Age tended to revolve around existential dread. There is a place for those kind of Superman stories.

[Coyote2010]

I like Ross' portrayal of super-heroes as middle aged people in ridiculous costumes because that's what they would look like in real life, and I think it's healthy that we comics fans be forced to face the absolute ridiculousness of these concepts and characters every once in a while.

So his covers, I tend to enjoy. It's just his interior work I can't get into too much. He gets too caught up in detail (at least he did back in the KC days) his panel compositions were a punch in the eye -- too chaotic -- and his sequential storytelling wasn't that strong. That's why he started having people like Braithwaite do his layouts and rough pencils, handling composition and storytelling, so he can focus on the things he excels at: actual painting technique.

And I don't mind the occasional troubled portrait of Superman. The best Superman stories of the entire Silver Age tended to revolve around existential dread. There is a place for those kind of Superman stories.

Super Insightful one and all. I don't see Ross's work as more realistic than Miller's. Miller's TDKR still feels more docuumentary and true in many ways, and Ross's work is totally real like Norman Rockwell or It's a Wonderful Life, fable like really.

Superman feels more human to me than Batman because of the moral dilemna?

Love how in the end, for me, Batman and Superman is all you need.

[clownprince01]

Kingdom Come quite comfortably for me. Not to take anything away from The Dark Knight Returns but being a Superman fan just a tiny bit more than a Batman fan, Kingdom Come is just one of my favourite stories. Perhaps most importantly, it does something I like to see in Superman stories, it simultaneously shows the best and worst of him. I know a lot of people here don't like that, but for me it gets a bit tiring to see Superman being the ultimate paragon 24/7 without any flaw.

Regarding the Miller/Ross debate, I think it's unfair to compare them. It's apples and oranges. Ross' art, by its very nature, doesn't lend itself very well to sequential storytelling. But it's gorgeous and loaded with detail and emotion. Some people don't like his Superman, but I like the fact he looks more mature and at the same time imposing. It makes it credible that he's the leader of the Justice League. Miller's art is more of an acquired taste for me and I've gotten use to it, but I'm not the biggest fan. Still, I can't deny how well it flows.

On a side note, is it just me or is the art in The Dark Knight Strikes Again just atrocious? It looks like a child trying to imitate Miller's art in The Dark Knight Returns. I was so taken aback when I first saw it.

[T Hedge Coke]

Regarding the Miller/Ross debate, I think it's unfair to compare them. It's apples and oranges.

I compare apples and oranges all the time. When I go to the grocery story and I see a bin of one, a bin of the other, and I choose the apples.

I find even Miller's standalone pieces, like this



far more communicative, technically complex, evocative, inspiring, and Batman than any Ross Batman image that's coming to mind. Which, again, isn't me saying Ross is talentless (though he's not a photorealist, no matter how many fans say so, and I doubt he'd claim that himself), it's just me saying that Miller is technically superior on some fronts and for my tastes, aesthetically more pleasing.

I just finished a column on some of Ross' work, because I do find value there, I do find some of it highly entertaining. The style Ross employs, he does very very well, but its basic components as a style, are some of the first things you learn in art school. Holly Golightly, who does School Bites, can turn out of Ross-style portrait if she wants to, and there's a few examples out there, but they don't fit the work she's doing, so she's fitted her art to the comics she does. Miller's shown a huge range of styles and a variety of techniques, rarely executing one that seems legitimately lazy (and not simply big or frenetic, which aren't lazy) but he's not going for Rockwellian naturalism, that faux-realism, and he's not going for photorealism, either. Ross, to my eye, seems to start with Rockwellian naturalism and unless he's painting a cover version of a pre-existent image, he pretty much sticks to the naturalism, to his idiosyncratic style (and that's okeh, as far as that goes).

[clownprince01]

I will admit I'm not a fan of Ross' Batman. His Superman is superb but his Batman doesn't strike me as someone with speed and grace. That and the costume doesn't look great on him. Normally these aren't problems, I mean, I like Jim Lee's Batman, but Ross' realistic style really draws attention absurdity of it.

Ross' strength is the big canvas and the emotion can give the characters. And he's able to bring a certain romanticism to proceedings in ways few can. I don't get that sense as much with Miller. That's why I think Kingdom Come and especially Marvels are perfect stories for him to draw. Though to be honest, I don't think Ross was 100% suited to Justice (although its still VERY pretty to look at).

As I mentioned before, what's your opinion on The Dark Knight Strikes Again's interior art? Because despite what I've said, I actually do like Miller. That's why it was so disheartening for me to see TDKSA.

[T Hedge Coke]

As I mentioned before, what's your opinion on The Dark Knight Strikes Again's interior art? Because despite what I've said, I actually do like Miller. That's why it was so disheartening for me to see TDKSA.

I love, unabashedly, the majority of that internal art, those pages. I think he does some of the styles better than others, but especially seeing how many drafts and versions he went through, it's easy to tell he really was trying with every image, and most of it does what it's meant to for me. Ray, the tiny titan in a petri dish the size of forever. Batman smiling with his feet up on the dash. Flash's cheesy "hip" costume that's just "make it black" with running shorts. Wonder Woman coming down on a winged horse, bringing the lightning. That absolutely crumpled Martian Manhunter. Even his entirely faceless Question is still completely emoting with his vacant face and simplistic body, and that's definitely hard to pull off.

It was a set of styles and techniques he applied to one comic. Hell and Back had a completely different set of styles and techniques, too, which weren't the ones he'd just been using on Sin City stuff or anything much like the DKSA style. I do think Miller was/is still trying to expand.

I haven't seen a huge amount of his Spirit storyboards, but those I have seen, like the DKSA pages and studies that didn't make it into the comic, show even further development and application of techniques in little ways, and when he references/alludes it's totally deliberate and adds something, even when it's the Chucks or a particular car, while Ross' allusions tend to be just there like the Tenchi Muyo! graffiti or the ELO space base; the Cosby Kids.

[T Hedge Coke]

Even DKR/DKSA Superman... I mean, these are not images of hate:

[T Hedge Coke]