Justice League #14 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[brettc1]

But I didn't say Steve was a "dirty old man" and I didn't say Diana was "a frail flower child".

I've stated what was printed. Trevor was in a position of authority / trust, he is I estimate 7-10 years older than Diana in absolute years, but in terms of worldly experience of his realm - the modern world - upon her arrival, she was no years old - having no experience.

Trevor is the one who complains she can't say the word, he is the one who explains what holding hands means, his is the place of power, and he is driving this. Diana is the one who ends it when she grows in relative wisdom.

Brett this in no way detracts from her exceptionalism, "one of the strongest of all heroes. She is, after all, Wonder Woman," she is all those things - although at just 18 more girl going on a woman. However you can't argue she arrived off the boat - in the new 52 - as anything but naive in specific realms of experience. That is skill with a lasso or sword or wisdom in terms of strategic battle planning - don't automatically make you wise in dealing with affairs of the heart.

Indeed, and we see that now

Also, the reason that she ended her relationship with Steve has been clearly identified as to protect him from harm. There is no evidence for another reason at this point. Every member of the League knows that he means more to her than a friend as well. Which makes me genuinely wonder what the hell Clark is doing.

Beckett/Castle is more analogous to Superman / Wonder Woman, as it's two adults who happen to have worked together, with expertise in different fields, who after a time find themselves in a relationship. As would say Bones/Booth.

Bones and Booth I give you, especially since the ep where their halloween costumes are Wonder Woman and Clark Kent. LOL

But Castle and Beckett is Steve and Diana. She is the cop, he is the writer. When they go through the door, she goes first. Rick's a pretty good shot but Kate would have it all over him in a fight from what we have seen, and besides he often does not have a gun. I am wishing for a scene where somone asks him why he never bothered to keep asking for a gun so he can say something like "Why do I need a gun when I have her?"

Her interrogation skills [getting to the truth] are better and she can drive like a she-devil. A recurring theme in the show is that Rick is putting himself in situations way over his head, but of course he does it to keep up with her.

Damn, now I am going to have to go watch a few episodes! I hope Monday night has a new one

[For the record, the EverQueen actually prefers Bones to Castle. We tease each other about it a lot ;) ]

[kylesgirl]

You mean like Batman is manipulating things behind everyone's back?

If you look at the 'team' its pretty clear why Steve does not fully trust them. If he actually told people what was going on on that satellite there woudl probably be a mass panic, but that is in nobodies best interest. By the end of issue #12 and with time to be reflective because Steve turns up and saves them all from being brain-frakked, even the Leaguers realize they are deficient in certain areas.

It is stated pretty plainly that Steve believes in the League, but like Batman he is clearly going to hedge his bets. Not a bad plan with the good of the planet at stake.

As for Beckett, I think if you watched the show you would see the similarities. I like Beckett because she is so much like Diana. She even uses her classic line here, 'Nobody has to die.' She uses that most times she pulls her gun. Because while she is badass, she is not an assassin. She gets to the truth but she also shows compassion. She is intelligent, brave, resourceful, and passionate about justice. Anyone wanting to get some ideas on how to write Wonder Woman for tv would be well served by studying some of her character.

And of course Nathan Fillion is in the show. He played Steve Trevor once, in case I forgot to mention it.

Bruce is a creeper!!!!!!

But talking about this Beckett to me is going over my head cuz I only know Diana and what I read. And Steve in many panels seems to pretty pissed with the League and it's clear the only reason IMO he is there is because he wants to be near Diana. And the farther the League gets from the goverment the better. It is a personal bias I don't like heroes following a single government's agenda. The JL should never be Shield but seems that DC wants to follow. And the JL being touted as not having a social conscience..since when has these characters ever behaved that way? The mere idea of reading Superman in Action Comics and Trevor saying that. It's contradiction. Superman's whole career was built on an actice social conscience. It seems just a writer's device which kind of ended up stunting the whole team's growth to give Steve a chance to build his team and spin off a JLA comic so I'll just have to let that slide. Steve being away from the team seems better so far for them. As for him, we'll just have to see if he can stop acting like a sap and stop allowing his personal feelings into this.

[brettc1]

Steve being away from the team seems better so far for them. As for him, we'll just have to see if he can stop acting like a sap and stop allowing his personal feelings into this.

The great thing about that statement is that even in his current state he is still so incedible he outdid the entire JL in resisting mind control by the the minions of Mr Staypuft. Imagine how awesome he is going to be when his head is clear!

[rude.cherub]

Indeed, and we see that now

Also, the reason that she ended her relationship with Steve has been clearly identified as to protect him from harm. There is no evidence for another reason at this point. Every member of the League knows that he means more to her than a friend as well. Which makes me genuinely wonder what the hell Clark is doing.



Bones and Booth I give you, especially since the ep where their halloween costumes are Wonder Woman and Clark Kent. LOL

But Castle and Beckett is Steve and Diana. She is the cop, he is the writer. When they go through the door, she goes first. Rick's a pretty good shot but Kate would have it all over him in a fight from what we have seen, and besides he often does not have a gun. I am wishing for a scene where somone asks him why he never bothered to keep asking for a gun so he can say something like "Why do I need a gun when I have her?"

Her interrogation skills [getting to the truth] are better and she can drive like a she-devil. A recurring theme in the show is that Rick is putting himself in situations way over his head, but of course he does it to keep up with her.

Damn, now I am going to have to go watch a few episodes! I hope Monday night has a new one

[For the record, the EverQueen actually prefers Bones to Castle. We tease each other about it a lot ;) ]

I understand where you're coming from - I do see what you mean with Beckett going first and Castle following, because Wonder Woman Steve Trevor really is the trope originator for that dynamic. Although the show is called Castle not Beckett.

And I have said elsewhere that I have observed a trend in pop fiction away from the "will they won't they / Love Triangle" being the heart and soul of shows like Castle. Castle and Bones are just two that survived the jump from "will they won't they" to a couple show, Chuck was another. For me the key message from these shows is of equal partners with different skills as opposed to the usual distressed damsel trope.

Power Couples is where it's at IMO.

As far as why the romantic relationship ended...

... my recollection is that it was due to Steve, because Diana couldn't say the word. There after there was a pseudo platonic relationship, where Steve's romantic love for Diana was unrequited. Diana did feel fraternal love toward Steve ie still cared about his welfare, but that didn't read in any way to me, to mean she had any romantic feelings toward him for quite sometime, indeed given she couldn't say the word, that's a compelling argument for the notion she never truly felt true romantic love, ie a best it was just a crush thing.

It's perhaps unfair to bring Azz into this, but he wrote her as being able to truthfully say she loved everyone. I'm however sure that 'love' wasn't Eros, by Agape to get Greek on you.

All that said it doesn't mean that in the future the comics couldn't return to the classic pairings - I'm not arguing that, they might, although IMO it's not a sure thing, as with all it depends on sales of books and merchandise.
What I am saying is that in the JL book those dynamics don't exist - nor seem to have existed.

That the relationship between Diana and Steve was written to be doomed.

That doesn't mean an older wiser Diana won't be wooed by an older wiser Steve Trevor - that story might be written. Just in the same way if Johns concludes Superman and Wonder Woman aren't right together now, that doesn't mean they won't be right for each other later on in their story - just like C.K. Dexter Haven and Tracy Lord.

[brettc1]

The gist of what I got was that her motive for not saying whatever it was was that she felt it would put him in danger. That is what I gleaned from her conversations in JL #11. I stongly suspect what happened with the Cheetah had a lot to do with that.

[misslane38]

Our definition of "romantic" is different. I don't see Clark having a suedo crush on Lois as having romantic feelings for her. Again, has Clark in the New 52 ever mentioned that he loved Lois or was in love with Lois? Please quote the comic and the issue.

It was not a "pseudo crush." It was a legitimate crush. Though he never said he loved her, he definitely cared about her enough to be jealous of her boyfriend and to wish "things were different" (Superman #3) so he could have a "serious" relationship with her (Superman #13). He was quite smitten with her and nothing yet has suggested he got over that. Rather, he is exploring something with Wonder Woman because he feels the door is closed with Lois; she's with someone and he feels he can't get close anyway because of he worries his life is too dangerous. That door, however, isn't locked.

As for the rest, those are the facts as you see them. I don't see it that way. Diana did not break up with Steve to protect him, Steve wanted to move the relationship to a place Diana did not want to go. Again, she did not have the same feelings for Steve that he had for her.

They are not the facts as I see them. They are the facts. There are quotes and scans that illustrate plainly that Diana and Steve are separated because she cares so much about him she doesn't want him to get hurt. She explicitly described having feelings for Steve in Justice League #12 right before Superman kissed her. She said she liked him and implied she wished things were simpler (i.e. he wasn't in danger because of his connection with her) because that way they could be together. Everything you're saying is demonstrably untrue.

Green Lantern might disagree with you, assuming he were conscious.

I also notice the evil ghosty clouds appear to people in the forms of the ones they miss the most and/or the ones they have the strongest emotional connection to.

Agreed. Johns crafted his story in such a way to communicate in several ways how much Diana cared about Steve.

Replace Steve with someone like Hippolyta in that situation, and Green Lantern would have found himself on the ground in the same fashion. There's a number of people I'd have that reaction toward whom I love but am not in love with. Johns' characterizations are pretty easy to follow and not that nuanced, and what he's showing with Diana right now is a single and free woman willfully exploring this new guy who's taken a shine to her. No guilt, no confusion, no tension whatsoever. She's not acting torn at all. What kind of person in a "I love this guy but can't have him" stage acts that way to new interest? So couple the entire run to date, and not just looking at #10-12 in a vacuum, I come away feeling she loves Steve but got over him romantically at some point in their year apart. That's no attempt to squash the hopes and dreams of fans of the pairing forever, because nothing is forever in comics till they cease publication entirely. That's just the way I see it being right now.

Superman and Wonder Woman can easily be said to be acting that way because this new relationship is serving as a distraction. It is, in fact, the definition of a rebound relationship:

A rebound relationship is a distraction. It is a connection to another person that keeps us from having to experience the full extent of the emotional pain of our recent break – up. It is a misguided attempt to move on with our lives. Many people will jump back into the dating scene because they fear being alone. It’s a quick fix, one in which we can drown out our pain by reveling in the emotional intensity and passion of a new found love. It can be a a lot more fun that dealing with the misery of a recently broken heart. (Read more here).

ETA: As an aside, the talk about Castle reminded me of this video and a tweet someone I follow on Tumblr once shared from one of the show's writers which indicated Lois & Clark informed her writing of the show's main couple.

[Nocturnus]

Why do people make simple things complicated? Lets get the facts:

- Does Diana like Steve? Yes.
- Does Clark like Lois? Yes.
- Does Clark and Diana like each other? Yes.
- Could it be possible that they move on and will get to like each other 'more' than Lois/Steve? Yes possible, in fact that's the kind of route they are probably taking.
- Is it possible to return to the "old" status quo? Yes. But so far the indications seem contrary.

So where is the problem?

[misslane38]

Why do people make simple things complicated? Lets get the facts:

- Does Diana like Steve? Yes.
- Does Clark like Lois? Yes.
- Does Clark and Diana like each other? Yes.
- Could it be possible that they move on and will get to like each other 'more' than Lois/Steve? Yes possible, in fact that's the kind of route they are probably taking.
- Is it possible to return to the "old" status quo? Yes. But so far the indications seem contrary.

So where is the problem?

The problem is that your last two points are highly subjective and not supported by a whole lot of evidence. Could Clark and Diana be having more than just a rebound relationship? Sure, they could. But do we know enough now to say DC is probably going to take that route? Absolutely not. We also have no indications either intra-textually or meta-textually that Steve and Lois are likely to have been put permanently off the table as potential love interests. Of course, I could also point to the biggest problem you seemed to have missed: if Diana and Clark are getting closer despite still liking other people, then they're starting off their relationship with a messy foundation. Starting a new relationship while you still have unresolved feelings for someone else is not the best way to begin a love story one hopes will stand the test of time.

Finally, I think the most significant indication that Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship will not work out is the fact that DC is doing it now. A company launching a brand new universe doesn't put two of its flagship characters on a nonstop path to eternal love when playing around with other love interests would be much more creatively freeing and would be in line with the overall impetus behind the reboot. I mean, they retconned the marriage and killed off the Kents because they thought Superman having a perfect life was partially to blame for declining sales. Setting Superman up to find true love with the first woman he dates after becoming Superman -- a woman who could be perceived as perfect -- seems fundamentally at odds with DC's creative philosophy at the moment.

[Sacred Knight]

The girl sure takes her sweet time jumping back on that dating wagon and getting a quick fix, then. She needs a distraction...so she waits one year. Doesn't sound like the implication to me, in fact it seems like you'd save yourself a lot of trouble as a writer and just pen the breakup as having much more recently as opposed to a year ago. Johns' hands weren't tied there in any way, he could have had them broken up for one week, yet chose a much longer period of time. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for that was to specifically avoid the whole rebound arena. But we can only read on and see where it goes. Maybe he'll spill more of what he's thinking while writing it in a future interview.

[Nocturnus]

@misslane38
Or maybe... just maybe.. you are reading WAY too much into it? I've not suggested over half the things you wrote. I've said it could be possible that they might end up liking each other more. Which is something that the comics seem to be going for. Unless you are reading something else or not reading at all. In which case I don't know where you are coming from.

As for liking others. in case you didn't know, people can be attracted to more than one person and that's totally normal. But it doesn't mean jack though.

[brettc1]

Speculation about what could happen must account for a good percentage of the contenet of comic book discussion forums. So I'm not afraid to speculate.

I dont think the guys writing DC Comics mind one bit that there are folks rooting for Steve to win through in the end, since it is another reason for those readers to be interested.

One thing I am fairly sure of is the course of true love never runs smooth, in textual narratives at any rate. It would be damn boring if Clark and Diana had no problems to overcome. And the same goes for Diana and the pride of the USAF

[Aquacatlungfish]

I actually just read it...
The SHAZAM backup was great and way better than the book on the whole.
The SMWW scenes were cool.
The main fight scene sucked and way way too rushed.
Superman is now the best written member of the team and Wonder Woman comes off as an idiot.
Can the Bateditors slap Johns and tell him that everyone hates the Batjerk and should never return?
Cheetah catching Flash? NO.

[Mr. Holmes]

Can the Bateditors slap Johns and tell him that everyone hates the Batjerk and should never return?

Well they dont' seem to mind when Snyder does it.

[kylesgirl]

I actually just read it...
The SHAZAM backup was great and way better than the book on the whole.
The SMWW scenes were cool.
The main fight scene sucked and way way too rushed.
Superman is now the best written member of the team and Wonder Woman comes off as an idiot.
Can the Bateditors slap Johns and tell him that everyone hates the Batjerk and should never return?
Cheetah catching Flash? NO.

Batjerk is who Batman is on many levels. It's why he is who he is and perhaps why he can't have a healthy relationships because it keeps him one step ahead of everyone. Hopefully he learns what he is doing is more detrimental to the whole team and he needs to learn to trust them.

[Aquacatlungfish]

Well they dont' seem to mind when Snyder does it.

The only thing he did was punch Nightwing which was too get something out of his teeth and I think Nightwing can take a punch due to his training and being one of the world's greatest superheroes and Snyder's Batman does care about the people around him like Alfred and Gordon. Stalking however is the true return of the Batjerk. Oh and Snyder's Batman has reddeming qualitites, the Justice League part of this book does not.