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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Not only THAT, but what [experienced] 30-year old is going to be taken by surprise when a "fresh off the boat" person can not function at his emotional level? She didn't even know what holding hands meant!
    What does being unaware of a strange culture's ways have anything to do with emotional maturity?

    I must say I hate the idea that just because Diana's from another place she's naive and prime to be taken advantage of. It's condescending and patronizing to assume all young women are ripe for the plucking. She's Wonder Woman for craps sake.

  2. #152
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Oh for sure. Experience and personal expectation are huge factors here. For both characters. I am not sure Diana even knew what it implied by holding hands.
    What do you mean you're not sure? Of course Diana didn't know what it implied to hold hands; that's why she had to ask Steve about it.

    Affection for family is not the same as the kind that would entail deeper intimacy and Diana has the disadvantage of not even knowing gender politics and norms that govern the society she is now in.
    One doesn't need to know gender norms or gender politics to understand love and affection. If you care about someone, you care about them and you tell them and show them that you do (the ways one does this can vary from culture to culture one just needs to learn the "language" of it). Sometimes the feelings are one sided and so a relationship goes nowhere and sometimes feelings are mutual but fears get in the way. The only reason a relationship shouldn't progress is if the feelings aren't there, and evidence suggests that Diana did care about Steve, and let him know that she did, but then fear began to creep into their lives. Barbara Minerva turned into the Cheetah while Diana and Steve worked together, and public scrutiny grew greater as the League garnered more attention, so the loss of Barbara and the external pressure people put on them is what kept persuading Diana to be skittish. Contributing to her temerity was also not her youth or naivete, but her concern about her culture's past. When you learn your society has mistreated human men -- caused them harm -- it's likely she feared she was acting like a siren drawing Steve to her and only getting him hurt. In fact, when Steve confers with Batman and Aquaman about Barbara he says Diana blames herself for what happened to Barbara in the same way she was now blaming herself for what happened to him. None of that has to do with her not understanding intimacy or being taken advantage of.

    My sympathy for Trevor is marginal. Especially when his sister was talking to him about Diana and saying awful things about her. I was like, did Tracey ever meet Diana? You'd swear Diana was some cruel woman who breaks hearts regularly. Steve never stood up for Diana as well and said, Tracey, it's not her fault the media are the idiots etc. Tracey is older and wiser I would assume should have told her brother, I am sorry you're hurting but what were you thinking, Steve? He should know you don't demand committment. It's given of one's own free will.
    What are you talking about? Tracey cannot be older and wiser, since she's Steve's younger sister. And since when could a person not suffer a broken heart when their desire for commitment is rebuffed? That's the basis of most broken hearts, I would expect. Plus, I just double checked the scenes you're talking about and the only thing Tracey says is that Steve should put some distance between himself and Diana. "You need to get a life away from work. Away from her," is all she said in her first appearance. In her second appearance, she's distraught thinking her brother is either dead or nearly dead, and in that vulnerable and raw emotional place says, "You already broke his heart. You crushed his self-worth. But he still dedicated his life to you. He could already be dead because of you. My brother could be dead. You better bring him home. You bring home Steve." When Tracey made that statement Steve obviously wasn't there to stand up for Diana, and there's no way of knowing if he hadn't in the past and it was just Tracey who was holding a grudge.

    Hal says in one issue, "Steve's important to all of us, Wonder Woman. Since we know how much he means to you. You might not say it, but we all know why you cut it off.. even if you didn't want to." In lieu of detailed history of what's gone down because Johns insists on insufferable flashbacks and glimpses of significant character forming moments instead of giving the meat of it so we don't have to engage in guesswork, it seems clear to me that Diana and Steve did grow close naturally, but she pushed him away after what happened with Barbara, and that hurt him. It hurt him because he lost someone he cared about and he knew cared about him, and because the break up was used by everyone to make fun of him. Tracey was obviously upset, and people are more extreme when they're that upset, but she was simply expressing her anguish at the price her brother was paying for daring to love someone. I'm sure as a Wonder Woman fan you'll understand given Diana's treatment of Hal later on in the same issue.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-24-2012 at 11:36 AM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    What does being unaware of a strange culture's ways have anything to do with emotional maturity?

    I must say I hate the idea that just because Diana's from another place she's naive and prime to be taken advantage of. It's condescending and patronizing to assume all young women are ripe for the plucking. She's Wonder Woman for craps sake.
    Of course a stranger in a strange land is going to be naive of cultural norms. Heck I had problems ordering Water in California.

    The fault here isn't with Diana's lack of knowledge but with the idea of an older man taking advantage of a position of authority / trust to satisfy his romantic ambitions. It's Steve who is at fault.

    In the end she's Wonder Woman and he isn't - which explains their relative health at the end of the relationship.
    Last edited by rude.cherub; 11-24-2012 at 11:02 AM.

  4. #154
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    The fault here isn't with Diana's lack of knowledge but with the idea of an older man taking advantage of a position of authority / trust to satisfy his romantic ambitions. It's Steve who is at fault.
    What? Diana had more physical power and more authority; Steve just had more knowledge of the majority culture. And how, pray tell, did Steve "take advantage" of Diana? Did he keep her under a steady barrage of unwanted kisses she was helpless to stop? Did he rape her, shame her, or threaten her with violence or slander if he didn't get his way? What makes you so sure that Steve was the unstoppable predator you're portraying him as? Remember, this is Diana--the same woman who stood her ground against Hades himself. The notion that she can't say to Steve "I don't feel comfortable. I don't want you to touch me like that" or "I don't like you, so let's just be friends" is absurd and insulting. What "romantic ambitions" are you assuming Steve had? Now this honorable captain who the JLA respected and who obviously hated the public attention on his relationship wanted a trophy girlfriend? Honestly, where are you pulling these ideas from?

  5. #155
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the above. We've seen next to nothing of their relationship. That's why I think it's patronizing to assume Steve took advantage, simply from the idea of, hey, what guy wouldn't?

    This was the issue I had with Perez' ideas about Diana and Steve. He didn't want her falling in love with him because of course she'd be taken advantage of. Ideas like that give little credit to women in general and Wonder Woman in particular. Just because some guys have a leering appreciation of a younger woman doesn't mean that women are too dumb or unsure of themselves to know what's right.

  6. #156
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    I confess I am disturbed by this.

    Apparently if someone is physically more powerful, or specially adept in certain ways - this makes them immune to pressure - sexual grooming - by someone in position of authority over them, authority granted by virtue of their greater knowledge and position / social standing in society. Power that has noting to do with martial skill or pounds that can be benched.

    Further if they go one to demonstrate courage in the face of great adversity - later in life, against a foe, then this is a sign this earlier relationship was appropriate - or had no pyscological impact.

    Sincerely if you believe physical strength, intelligence and or other exceptional qualities, means a younger person can't be groomed by an older person in a position of authority over them you are gravely mistaken.

    Neither does such exceptionalism make a relationship between a mentor and some one significantly younger in terms of life experience appropriate.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    What does being unaware of a strange culture's ways have anything to do with emotional maturity?

    I must say I hate the idea that just because Diana's from another place she's naive and prime to be taken advantage of. It's condescending and patronizing to assume all young women are ripe for the plucking. She's Wonder Woman for craps sake.

    I think that we can both agree that having a relationship with a mature MAN is probably a little different from what she's used to (IF she is used to anything back home). By our standards and customs, Diana is 23 probably going on 14 when it comes to functional relationships. It's hard enough for us sometimes and we were living here all our lives. I'm not really referring to emotional maturity per se, but rather relationship-wise with a race that she's never met before. I wouldn't say all young women are "ripe for the plucking" but when you're 30 and the other person is 18 you're certainly dealing with a volatile situation at best. Relationships are a learning process.

    An example of maturity I'm talking about (not related to Steve & Diana): A younger person might ignore the tattle-tale signs of someone who is on the rebound from a previous relationship, but as an adult you really should know better. It's a risk at best. This is the calibre of experience I'm talking about.

  8. #158
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    I confess I am disturbed by this.

    Apparently if someone is physically more powerful, or specially adept in certain ways - this makes them immune to pressure - sexual grooming - by someone in position of authority over them, authority granted by virtue of their greater knowledge and position / social standing in society. Power that has noting to do with martial skill or pounds that can be benched.
    Again, what on Earth are you talking about? I didn't just mention physical forms of intimidation and rejection. I mentioned shaming and threats as well as verbal responses to such threats if they were made.

    Further if they go one to demonstrate courage in the face of great adversity - later in life, against a foe, then this is a sign this earlier relationship was appropriate - or had no pyscological impact.
    It does nothing of the sort because I never said the relationship with Steve was appropriate beyond a shadow of a doubt because of that one incident. Rather, it was an example that shows what Diana is capable of. Do you not find it problematic to do the reverse and suggest that the relationship was inappropriate because you've assumed Steve is a lecherous predator based on no evidence at all?

    Sincerely if you believe physical strength, intelligence and or other exceptional qualities, means a younger person can't be groomed by an older person in a position of authority over them you are gravely mistaken.
    Why, though, is the immediate assumption that Diana was taken advantage of and groomed with no proof? You think it's okay to throw around outrageous accusations like that. There are zero signs Steve threatened, preyed upon, or took advantage of Diana in any way.

    Neither does such exceptionalism make a relationship between a mentor and some one significantly younger in terms of life experience appropriate.
    Steve wasn't Diana's mentor. He was her tour guide basically. And being a guide for a younger person doesn't automatically equate to showing her the ways of the world in more ways than one. The New 52 has done a terrible job establishing the backgrounds of their core characters, so we don't know what happened. Could someone in Steve's position abuse it like you're suggesting? Yes, but just as easily no. Do we have any proof to tell us for sure what happened? No. Why is your assumption, which essentially accuses Steve of sexual harassment and worse, somehow more acceptable than simply suggesting that Diana may have just been capable of understanding what it means to like a person and how to either show or tell a person you like that you either are or are not interested in getting into a relationship or doing anything intimate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I think that we can both agree that having a relationship with a mature MAN is probably a little different from what she's used to (IF she is used to anything back home). By our standards and customs, Diana is 23 probably going on 14 when it comes to functional relationships. It's hard enough for us sometimes and we were living here all our lives. I'm not really referring to emotional maturity per se, but rather relationship-wise with a race that she's never met before. I wouldn't say all young women are "ripe for the plucking" but when you're 30 and the other person is 18 you're certainly dealing with a volatile situation at best. Relationships are a learning process.
    No one is denying there could be a potential for exploitation. What is at issue here is that there is no evidence to support the assertion that Steve, in fact, did take advantage of Diana and groom her to fulfill his romantic and sexual desires.

    An example of maturity I'm talking about (not related to Steve & Diana): A younger person might ignore the tattle-tale signs of someone who is on the rebound from a previous relationship, but as an adult you really should know better. It's a risk at best. This is the calibre of experience I'm talking about.
    If this is true, then how do you interpret Clark's decision to kiss Diana when she was clearly vulnerable and still emotionally attached to Steve? Is Diana's lack of romantic maturity preventing her from cautiously approaching a relationship with Clark who still has unresolved feelings for Lois Lane?
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-24-2012 at 12:52 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    What? You realize this is a real strawman argument? Transformers was sucessful and most people hated it? LOL. Hey I hate Twilight but many people love it. I can see that it makes money and people are passionate about it. So if something keeps making money and getting sequels it means everyone hated it? Those stupid people going to the cinema!!! I would love to know who is 'everyone" though.

    And Superman and Wonder Woman are different characters. Why in Gods name should she need to benchpress the earth? Azz has clearly said her being stronger than Superman has nothing to do with her being a good hero or a unique hero and if people want her a carbon copy of Superman, then you probably want Powergirl or Supergirl or something.
    It's an argument that works. Being successful doesn't mean that it was good or that most people liked it. The only fanbase I found that liked Transformers was 10 year olds and people who have too much nostalgia for toy commercials. The only people that seem to really like Superman Earth One are people that don't read much comics.
    I pointed out Wonder Woman not being as strong as Superman as a point to say that Wonder Woman would still be a "Woman of Tissue" because she isn't as strong as Superman, nobody is in the DCu. Thanks for putting me out of context.

  10. #160
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    I stand by the assertion a relationship between a someone who is 7-10 years older than someone in their teens is questionable.

    If that person is a mentor/teacher or guide - in this conext to a alien culture then all the more so.

    Given Diana had no experience of men or relationships in this foriegn culture it was clearly inappropriate.

    Those are the facts as established by the narrative.

    Any one who pretends otherwise is being deliberately obtuse.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Again, what on Earth are you talking about? I didn't just mention physical forms of intimidation and rejection. I mentioned shaming and threats as well as verbal responses to such threats if they were made.



    It does nothing of the sort because I never said the relationship with Steve was appropriate beyond a shadow of a doubt because of that one incident. Rather, it was an example that shows what Diana is capable of. Do you not find it problematic to do the reverse and suggest that the relationship was inappropriate because you've assumed Steve is a lecherous predator based on no evidence at all?



    Why, though, is the immediate assumption that Diana was taken advantage of and groomed with no proof? You think it's okay to throw around outrageous accusations like that. There are zero signs Steve threatened, preyed upon, or took advantage of Diana in any way.



    Steve wasn't Diana's mentor. He was her tour guide basically. And being a guide for a younger person doesn't automatically equate to showing her the ways of the world in more ways than one. The New 52 has done a terrible job establishing the backgrounds of their core characters, so we don't know what happened. Could someone in Steve's position abuse it like you're suggesting? Yes, but just as easily no. Do we have any proof to tell us for sure what happened? No. Why is your assumption, which essentially accuses Steve of sexual harassment and worse, somehow more acceptable than simply suggesting that Diana may have just been capable of understanding what it means to like a person and how to either show or tell a person you like that you either are or are not interested in getting into a relationship or doing anything intimate.



    No one is denying there could be a potential for exploitation. What is at issue here is that there is no evidence to support the assertion that Steve, in fact, did take advantage of Diana and groom her to fulfill his romantic and sexual desires.



    If this is true, then how do you interpret Clark's decision to kiss Diana when she was clearly vulnerable and still emotionally attached to Steve? Is Diana's lack of romantic maturity preventing her from cautiously approaching a relationship with Clark who still has unresolved feelings for Lois Lane?
    Well I would agree with you about one thing... I don't see Steve "taking advantage" of Diana here at all. What I do see, is Steve not being rational and totally letting himself fall for something he probably should've thought twice about.

    Sure, go ahead and get into a relationship with her. By all means, go for it. Nothing wrong with that... but don't come crying to me, at least, when you get frustrated after it fails. Free Will comes easy, accepting responsibility.. not so much!

  12. #162
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    I stand by the assertion a relationship between a someone who is 7-10 years older than someone in their teens is questionable.

    If that person is a mentor/teacher or guide - in this conext to a alien culture then all the more so.

    Given Diana had no experience of men or relationships in this foriegn culture it was clearly inappropriate.
    Correction: it could have been inappropriate. We have no proof it actually was. From what we were shown, before doing anything, like holding hands, Steve would define in honest terms what that meant. If there was proof that Steve used Diana's ignorance to make her believe she had to feel or do things she did not feel or want to do, then you'd have a point. Since, I don't see any proof being offered, I'm not convinced.

    Those are the facts as established by the narrative.
    What facts might those be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Sure, go ahead and get into a relationship with her. By all means, go for it. Nothing wrong with that... but don't come crying to me, at least, when you get frustrated after it fails. Free Will comes easy, accepting responsibility.. not so much!
    The thing I've seen Steve most angry about is about the media mocking him relentlessly and then Diana pushing him away so they couldn't even really be friends like they used to, and the reason he knew she did so was not because she didn't feel comfortable with him or didn't like him, but because she liked him too much and didn't want to see him get hurt. He was more wounded when she ultimately took the media's side and said the only reason he was working for the League was for her, and then got him reassigned so he couldn't even help the world in the way he liked and wanted. In other words, it's made tougher because the relationship failed due to external pressure and not for lack of affection. He thought he could trust Diana to respect his choices and free will, even if that put him in danger, but she cared about him too much and thus pushed him away for his own good.

    As a an aside, I'm wondering what the implications would be if we do assume, which I won't but hypothetically I will, that Diana couldn't recognize or understand how interactions between the sexes could be problematic given certain behaviors. How can she effectively help and defend women against real predators and patriarchy if she is so inexperienced with it that she cannot recognize it and defend against it in her own life? This young woman who was trained by the man Ares, and defied him, needed to learn how to stand up for women against men from other men as an adult (i.e. her most significant interactions have been with Steve and the JL members). What are the implications of this?
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-24-2012 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Correction: it could have been inappropriate. We have no proof it actually was. From what we were shown, before doing anything, like holding hands, Steve would define in honest terms what that meant. If there was proof that Steve used Diana's ignorance to make her believe she had to feel or do things she did not feel or want to do, then you'd have a point. Since, I don't see any proof being offered, I'm not convinced.



    What facts might those be?



    The thing I've seen Steve most angry about is about the media mocking him relentlessly and then Diana pushing him away so they couldn't even really be friends like they used to, and the reason he knew she did so was not because she didn't feel comfortable with him or didn't like him, but because she liked him too much and didn't want to see him get hurt. He was more wounded when she ultimately took the media's side and said the only reason he was working for the League was for her, and then got him reassigned so he couldn't even help the world in the way he liked and wanted. In other words, it's made tougher because the relationship failed due to external pressure and not for lack of affection. He thought he could trust Diana to respect his choices and free will, even if that put him in danger, but she cared about him too much and thus pushed him away for his own good.
    Well one must admit it is difficult dealing with these issues after a breakup. I'm not sure how long they've been apart (in comic book time) by now, but the best thing to put between you is time, and space for awhile, then (depending on the breakup) you can actually become best friends (I've done it successfully). What she did will PROBABLY work out for the best in the long-run, but it was probably for the wrong reasons. And anyway... (without actually finding and re-reading the book) wasn't there alot of media-talk regarding Steve and Diana wondering if he was the most partial person for the job?

  14. #164
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Well I would agree with you about one thing... I don't see Steve "taking advantage" of Diana here at all. What I do see, is Steve not being rational and totally letting himself fall for something he probably should've thought twice about.

    Sure, go ahead and get into a relationship with her. By all means, go for it. Nothing wrong with that... but don't come crying to me, at least, when you get frustrated after it fails. Free Will comes easy, accepting responsibility.. not so much!
    Agreed. The blaming of Diana is a lack of taking responsibility for his part in the whole thing. But that's people for you. Not all of us are open minded enough to do that. It's her fault he lost his position, its her fault he is drowning his sorrows and wallowing , it her fault he gets overly involved in past missions, it her fault he can't deal with the media,. it's her fault he when he was the envy of the every man on the planet but now he's her ex it's her fault gossiping media want to sensationalize it ...it's her fault. Boy, I feel sorry for the girl and shows how little compassion some have for her as a vulnerable young woman in a strange land reliant on strangers to feel her way around. She had no family or anything here. Seems she should just bow to Steve's needs because he thinks she should. That is not something I agree with at all. If anyone decides they don't want to get involved with someone for whatever reason, the other person should respect that decision. That is respect and worthy of admiration. Not bellowing at her and sulking like a child.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    Of course a stranger in a strange land is going to be naive of cultural norms. Heck I had problems ordering Water in California.

    The fault here isn't with Diana's lack of knowledge but with the idea of an older man taking advantage of a position of authority / trust to satisfy his romantic ambitions. It's Steve who is at fault.

    In the end she's Wonder Woman and he isn't - which explains their relative health at the end of the relationship.
    This is wrong.

    First, people get the snot kicked out of them in the Justice League all the time. Without Steve in that adventure the whole League die.

    Second, Steve didnt take advantage of anyone. The evidence is that she took the relationship beyond friendship. We dont know his exact age, but he looks now to be 30. Based on that he is only about 6 years older than her, and we have no evidence to say she held in hand when she was 18. Based on the timeline they broke up the first time when she was 22. It is likely then they started dating officially when she was 21. Steve's age would be 27 at that time. Both adults.

    Finally, Steve is actually the one who apparently ends thing the first time, based on something she could or would not say. Her underylying motive are currently identified as her feeling she was putting him danger, ironically probably initiated by what happened with the Cheetah.

    The only thing that Steve is guilty of, based on the evidence at hand, is that he responded to a romantic overture by a beautiful adult woman and in the end she decided it was a bad idea - sadly too late for him. The fact that he was NOT the one to initiate a deeper relationship speaks well of his professionalism and character when he is not doped up on painkillers to combat the effects of brutal torutre.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


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