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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Not only THAT, but what [experienced] 30-year old is going to be taken by surprise when a "fresh off the boat" person can not function at his emotional level? She didn't even know what holding hands meant! Another 18 year old would've had the upper hand on her even then. This whole thing was Steve's fault from the get-go. He should've known it wouldn't work. When you're 30-something you should be looking for an emotional equal in a relationship, not to be the role of a teacher. At least not if you want it to work out right. He's got no one to be mad at, except himself.
    Well said.

    I don't have any blanket issue with age different relationships. Love is great, and we should grab it where we find it. However as a man I must say this Steve - Diana dynamic as told in the comics was predatory, and any Gentleman would see it as such.

    The age - life experience - difference between an average 18 year old (legal adult) and a 28 year old adult is far greater than that IMO than say between a 28 year old and a 48 year old.

    Some young people are mature enough to make a decision to date much older people, but when an older person is placed/has in a position of trust, as a mentor or teacher - it is clearly inappropriate especially when the younger person is vulnerable.

    I would ask people who defend such behaviour to take a long hard look at their moral compass.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Yeah Earth One is number on on the Graphic Novel chart. Many people liked it I would say. How does that translate to I haven't heard a single thing about it? Why are you asking him what does he care? How does that figure here? Basically you saying I care so you be quiet about what you care about is what you seem to be saying to him. And WW is taking down Gods now. Are you reading the WW book?
    Transformers 2 was extremely successful and most people hated it. Just because you buy something doesn't mean you liked it, it's probably because you like Superman and the first one.
    I am reading the WW book and she still hasn't done anything to convince me she could lift the planet like Superman does. I never called people who actually cared about it stupid I just didn't understand why.

  3. #138
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    Well said.

    I don't have any blanket issue with age different relationships. Love is great, and we should grab it where we find it. However as a man I must say this Steve - Diana dynamic as told in the comics was predatory, and any Gentleman would see it as such.

    The age - life experience - difference between an average 18 year old (legal adult) and a 28 year old adult is far greater than that IMO than say between a 28 year old and a 48 year old.

    Some young people are mature enough to make a decision to date much older people, but when an older person is placed/has in a position of trust, as a mentor or teacher - it is clearly inappropriate especially when the younger person is vulnerable.

    I would ask people who defend such behaviour to take a long hard look at their moral compass.
    I don't blame Steve for falling for her. She is Diana after all. If you have someone this beautiful and charming etc I doubt he could help himself if he is in constant contact. But I would expect him to have a little more wisdom in the relationship. And patience. He hardly showed either. He compromised his professional position by dating the woman he was liasion for. Then stayed on because he emotionally attached. I don't get how ARGUS allowed it. If they had a whiff he was dating her, then they should have removed him from that position. He is in a high ranking position in the military and this is a conflict of interest I would have thought. Anyway, so Argus overlooks it. Fine. It ends and anyone could see it would. I think the writing was on the wall. I think people who support Steve are quick to blame Superman and Wonder Woman for a relationship ending because it's a way to shift all the blame and try to milk sympathy. Steve, age differnce or no, needed to man up and say...look I play a huge part in this failing too...why am I blaming it all on Diana? He of all people knew her history and vulnerability and naivete etc. Now we have Superman should not be with her because Steve was in the hospital? What does that have to do with anything? Brett, I know you say you don't want to talk about Diana as a free agent? Well, you can't ignore that and Clark is a free agent. They both free agents and Steve is supposed to be a grown man. And this is weeks later since the kiss and Superman can date who he wants when he wants, because the woman he is dating wants it too.
    Last edited by hellacre; 11-24-2012 at 07:58 AM.
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  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Transformers 2 was extremely successful and most people hated it. Just because you buy something doesn't mean you liked it, it's probably because you like Superman and the first one.
    I am reading the WW book and she still hasn't done anything to convince me she could lift the planet like Superman does. I never called people who actually cared about it stupid I just didn't understand why.
    What? You realize this is a real strawman argument? Transformers was sucessful and most people hated it? LOL. Hey I hate Twilight but many people love it. I can see that it makes money and people are passionate about it. So if something keeps making money and getting sequels it means everyone hated it? Those stupid people going to the cinema!!! I would love to know who is 'everyone" though.

    And Superman and Wonder Woman are different characters. Why in Gods name should she need to benchpress the earth? Azz has clearly said her being stronger than Superman has nothing to do with her being a good hero or a unique hero and if people want her a carbon copy of Superman, then you probably want Powergirl or Supergirl or something.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I don't blame Steve for falling for her. She is Diana after all. If you have someone this beautiful and charming etc I doubt he could help himself if he is in constant contact. But I would expect him to have a little more wisdom in the relationship. And patience. He hardly showed either. He compromised his professional position by dating the woman he was liasion for. Then stayed on because he emotionally attached. I don't get how ARGUS allowed it. If they had a whiff he was dating her, then they should have removed him from that position. He is in a high ranking position in the military and this is a conflict of interest I would have thought. Anyway, so Argus overlooks it. Fine. It ends and anyone could see it would. I think the writing was on the wall. I think people who support Steve are quick to blame Superman and Wonder Woman for a relationship ending because it's a way to shift all the blame and try to milk sympathy. Steve, age differnce or no, needed to man up and say...look I play a huge part in this failing too...why am I blaming it all on Diana? He of all people knew her history and vulnerability and naivete etc. Now we have Superman should not be with her because Steve was in the hospital? What does that have to do with anything? Brett, I know you say you don't want to talk about Diana as a free agent? Well, you can't ignore that and Clark is a free agent. They both free agents and Steve is supposed to be a grown man. And this is weeks later since the kiss and Superman can date who he wants when he wants, because the woman he is dating wants it too.
    Absolutely understandable - I see why Geoff Johns chose to write it this way. Diana was all that - and with the martial expertise that made her far better than anyone else more 'mature' than many others in some ways - I can imagine how that could confuse the issue and give her a level of confidence that belied her naivete, her lack of real-world-experience.

    Equally I suspect Johns was using this plot point as a means to reflect the long standing and oft cited problem with Diana's origin. ie Leaving Themyscira/Paradise for the first man she ever sees.

    It's no secret that Trevor is a Gary-Stu for Marston.

    This unequal dynamic has always existed, for me personally there always seemed something off about this as a story - as much as I find the Disney - Prince kisses girl, fall in love, & get married straight away - story, to be lacking.

    So I suspect he's chosen this angle to reinterpret this / acknowledge the problem, a different take to Perez's solution which was pretty much to age Steve out of contention.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    What? You realize this is a real strawman argument? Transformers was sucessful and most people hated it? LOL. Hey I hate Twilight but many people love it. I can see that it makes money and people are passionate about it. So if something keeps making money and getting sequels it means everyone hated it? Those stupid people going to the cinema!!! I would love to know who is 'everyone" though.

    And Superman and Wonder Woman are different characters. Why in Gods name should she need to benchpress the earth? Azz has clearly said her being stronger than Superman has nothing to do with her being a good hero or a unique hero and if people want her a carbon copy of Superman, then you probably want Powergirl or Supergirl or something.

    More my fault for the Marston quote "The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

    But to be fair I didn't know New 52 Superman could bench press the planet until Lobdell wrote it so. So until the story demands Wonder Woman tries to do it, perhaps sans her bracelets - we won't know how strong she is, according to the New 52 canon.

    But what is clear is Diana isn't a carbon copy, but something else, yin to yang. which is shown in JL Dark for example, or even here in JL #14, there's nothing new ( if too often inconsistent ) about Superman's magic weakness - but it goes to show that Wonder Woman has a different power set, and can be the most powerful person in the fight.

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    More my fault for the Marston quote "The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

    But to be fair I didn't know New 52 Superman could bench press the planet until Lobdell wrote it so. So until the story demands Wonder Woman tries to do it, perhaps sans her bracelets - we won't know how strong she is, according to the New 52 canon.

    But what is clear is Diana isn't a carbon copy, but something else, yin to yang. which is shown in JL Dark for example, or even here in JL #14, there's nothing new ( if too often inconsistent ) about Superman's magic weakness - but it goes to show that Wonder Woman has a different power set, and can be the most powerful person in the fight.
    Oh I get that. Diana came in not to copy Supes exactly but to be something to girls as boys had Supes. :) And one complaint I see at times is Superman and Wonder Woman are too similar etc etc. I don't see that at all. If anything this reboot shows powers can be different, can often lap over and yet heroes can still be unique. And yeah, depending on the situation, Diana can be the gamechanger or Superman...or even Batman or the Atom. People get too hung up over the my guy can beat up your guy or girl as the case might be. It is the situation that makes it cuz all these heroes are heroic.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I don't blame Steve for falling for her. She is Diana after all. If you have someone this beautiful and charming etc I doubt he could help himself if he is in constant contact. But I would expect him to have a little more wisdom in the relationship. And patience. He hardly showed either. He compromised his professional position by dating the woman he was liasion for. Then stayed on because he emotionally attached. I don't get how ARGUS allowed it. If they had a whiff he was dating her, then they should have removed him from that position. He is in a high ranking position in the military and this is a conflict of interest I would have thought. Anyway, so Argus overlooks it. Fine. It ends and anyone could see it would. I think the writing was on the wall. I think people who support Steve are quick to blame Superman and Wonder Woman for a relationship ending because it's a way to shift all the blame and try to milk sympathy. Steve, age differnce or no, needed to man up and say...look I play a huge part in this failing too...why am I blaming it all on Diana? He of all people knew her history and vulnerability and naivete etc. Now we have Superman should not be with her because Steve was in the hospital? What does that have to do with anything? Brett, I know you say you don't want to talk about Diana as a free agent? Well, you can't ignore that and Clark is a free agent. They both free agents and Steve is supposed to be a grown man. And this is weeks later since the kiss and Superman can date who he wants when he wants, because the woman he is dating wants it too.
    I don't blame him for seeing good lovable qualities in her either. But to actively and consciously take things farther with her shows a deficit in his character. This was a classic case of Right Place at The Wrong Time. It also shows a classic case of thinking with the wrong head. Diana isn't emotionally crippled, but certainly young in a way not depicted by the number of her age. The concept of not understanding what holding hands in a relationship IS and SHOULD have been an enormously dangerous red flag to him. You don't buy a kid the first toy they cry for when they walk into a Toys R Us. You know what's coming in the next isle. Being emotionally stable is knowing when [sometimes] you need to think for other people when you know better.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    Not so sure. In Justice League Dark Superman is definitely the weaker of the pair in that set of circumstances

    Of course fiction is just fiction - as was the one where Fonzy jumped over the shark, it was just a TV show, and should we judge the every episode of Happy Days on the basis of that example?

    The much vaunted New 52 has delivered the best selling Wonder Woman book in quite some time.
    I don't think it's the "much vaunted New 52" that has delivered the best selling WW book in quite some time. It's Azzarello that has delivered the best selling WW book in quite some time. When we saw her guest-starring in Batwoman by another writer, she had the same exact "voice" as pre-nu52 with being put onto a pedestal of sorts which some of the louder voices here hated so much about her in the old run. When Azz leaves, the look and feel of this book will more than likely change radically. Whether its for the better or worse remains to be seen, of course.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I don't think it's the "much vaunted New 52" that has delivered the best selling WW book in quite some time. It's Azzarello that has delivered the best selling WW book in quite some time. When we saw her guest-starring in Batwoman by another writer, she had the same exact "voice" as pre-nu52 with being put onto a pedestal of sorts which some of the louder voices here hated so much about her in the old run. When Azz leaves, the look and feel of this book will more than likely change radically. Whether its for the better or worse remains to be seen, of course.
    While I agree wholehearedly that Azzarello & Chiang deserve the props, I'll say I'm not without reservations about some plot points - but those are tempered by the fact the story isn't finished yet.

    But this is for me the New 52 Wonder Woman, as Azz's take couldn't have happened without the universal reset, that was the relaunch, and Dido's choice to give him the gig.

    I also feel that the structure is set by headlining book in a reboot, so sure a new writer can change the tone and details such as Bryne taking over from Perez, but as the formers run on Superman demonstrates the structure created by the author of the reboot does persist long after the original writer has gone. In the case of Superman if felt like it took over two decades to fix the stuff that was broken and or lost from the Superman Mythos after COIE.

    So for that reason I'd be surprised if Wonder Woman deviates from the structure Azzarello has created when a new hand takes over, it doesn't mean the stories will be great, but they'll happen in the world recreated by Azzarello & Chiang.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I've always been a fan of having my Wonder Women super-powerful although I hear there's a certain taboo in wishing for Flying Bricks around here nowadays. However, I really don't know where to go with this "God Mode" issue. I think it will be as indigenous to this book, as the hothead/swashbuckling attitude will be to JL. What she did to Artemis in issue 12 will probably stay in issue 12.
    But what she did to Artemis has already not stayed in issue 12; we've seen it's results in issues 13 and 14, and Apollo has used those results as evidence that Wonder Woman is more powerful than other demigods and powerful enough to be a threat to the Olympians. In this way, Diana's god-like power seems like a plot point that's going to be important to the run; the Olympians may decide that they need to something to neutralize her as a threat. That seemed to be a big part of what their council as about, although it also turned out to be about figuring out how to deal with Ares' "losing his mind."

    Even without god mode and without using a sword, she's powerful enough to hurt Superman with a drop-kick or break a GL construct with her fist. Or to deflect the Omega Sanction or put out one of Darkseid's eyes (without the Flash-boost that Aquaman got).

    In this new world, her sword appears to be her schtick. Pre-nu52 your typical coffee-mug WW image used to be her wielding the lasso. I don't think we'll see that anymore when and if the new "memorabilia items" start being produced.
    The lasso has continued to be featured prominently on JL covers and on the Free Comic Book Day cover, though. The New 52 teams seem to like it as a visual, even if they underuse its power.


    When we saw her guest-starring in Batwoman by another writer, she had the same exact "voice" as pre-nu52 with being put onto a pedestal of sorts which some of the louder voices here hated so much about her in the old run.
    Maybe, but she was also introduced in Batwoman as "only daughter of Hippolyta and Zeus," and there has been emphasis there on mythology and her family connection to the gods--so it shows Azz's influence. It also may show a little of Geoff's, because in the first issue of the crossover she seems very willing to use lethal force as a warrior. (In the most recent issue, she's more reluctant, even about mercy killing.)
    Last edited by slvn; 11-24-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  12. #147
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    deleted correction :)
    Last edited by Outside_85; 11-24-2012 at 11:48 AM.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I don't blame him for seeing good lovable qualities in her either. But to actively and consciously take things farther with her shows a deficit in his character. This was a classic case of Right Place at The Wrong Time. It also shows a classic case of thinking with the wrong head. Diana isn't emotionally crippled, but certainly young in a way not depicted by the number of her age. The concept of not understanding what holding hands in a relationship IS and SHOULD have been an enormously dangerous red flag to him. You don't buy a kid the first toy they cry for when they walk into a Toys R Us. You know what's coming in the next isle. Being emotionally stable is knowing when [sometimes] you need to think for other people when you know better.
    Diana didn't get holding hands because she didn't understand the custom, not because she didn't understand what it means to love and show affection or even what it means to have those feelings of affection for a man. Different cultures have different customs to express similar things. It sort of reminds me of Wendy teaching Peter Pan. Is there any specific incident that you're remembering where Steve behaved in a predatory way that took advantage of Diana's naivete?

  14. #149
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I don't blame him for seeing good lovable qualities in her either. But to actively and consciously take things farther with her shows a deficit in his character. This was a classic case of Right Place at The Wrong Time. It also shows a classic case of thinking with the wrong head. Diana isn't emotionally crippled, but certainly young in a way not depicted by the number of her age. The concept of not understanding what holding hands in a relationship IS and SHOULD have been an enormously dangerous red flag to him. You don't buy a kid the first toy they cry for when they walk into a Toys R Us. You know what's coming in the next isle. Being emotionally stable is knowing when [sometimes] you need to think for other people when you know better.
    Oh for sure. Experience and personal expectation are huge factors here. For both characters. I am not sure Diana even knew what it implied by holding hands. Affection for family is not the same as the kind that would entail deeper intimacy and Diana has the disadvantage of not even knowing gender politics and norms that govern the society she is now in. Diana was sure to make mistakes. But Steve did go there and I get most annoyed when trying to palm the guilt on Diana. My sympathies for Trevor is marginal. Especially when his sister was talking to him about Diana and saying awful things about her. I was like, did Tracey ever meet Diana? You'd swear Diana was some cruel woman who breaks hearts regularly. Steve never stood up for Diana as well and said, Tracey, it's not her fault the media are the idiots etc. Tracey is older and wiser I would assume should have told her brother, I am sorry you're hurting but what were you thinking, Steve? He should know you don't demand committment. It's given of one's own free will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    *cough* Darkseid *cough*
    Thanks--fixed. Hopefully she won't pu tout one of Orion's eyes in the next issue.

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