Justice League #14 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[Sacred Knight]

Don't really think that's a good idea, personally. Yeah the relationship thing has been dominating the conversation the last few issues, but all the same its been part of the last few issues. Moving conversation about content that was part of the issue out of the issue's thread elsewhere strikes me as not making much sense. If it hadn't featured at all into these past three issues, then that's one thing as it'd be off-topic, but it has been a featured side-story. Just one that happens to get a bit more attention than the main story as of late.

[Bluewing_A23]

A.R.G.U.S' human resources team should be fired. Hired a criminal to work for you and to over look the black room, one of ARGUS' top secret room, without knowing? Sometime Johns story just doesn't make sense at all.

[brettc1]

I heard Batman is spying on Superman and Wonder Woman, if so


What?...
Johns doesn't get Batman so much it my left eyeball hurts.

I told you he would react like that.

He knew what was going on the second Diana didnt want to leave Superman.

I also notice the brilliant plan to keep Steve safe has accomplished nothing. He's still a target.

And it read in 9 minutes.

[brettc1]

My usual perception is that they need nothing from each other, which is what makes this particular superguy dating this particular supergal even more craptastic.

That made me laugh.

[hellacre]

Don't really think that's a good idea, personally. Yeah the relationship thing has been dominating the conversation the last few issues, but all the same its been part of the last few issues. Moving conversation about content that was part of the issue out of the issue's thread elsewhere strikes me as not making much sense. If it hadn't featured at all into these past three issues, then that's one thing as it'd be off-topic, but it has been a featured side-story. Just one that happens to get a bit more attention than the main story as of late.

I agree. The sm/ww romance is very much a part of the plot and hints are it probably is one of the factors in the upcoming War. It is not fair to have people not talk about it if they like or dislike how it is being built etc . However discussions really need to focus on that and the book's content and not which ship you like best. It's really got nothing to do with shipping personal stuff and times ...natural as it is...it seems that is all it tends to become. Right now there is not much other that it is progressing and people are free to love it or not...but really it should be what is in the book. Batman's spying, Cheetah etc are all important too. It's up to mods to moderate and posters to have some understanding there comes a point when you can keep flogging a dead horse or move on to another plot point.

[slvn]

Yep, but Batman has to investigate to "prove it", something Wonder Woman wouldn't really could have done. Does she even know what a "reporter" is a this point of the story? Besides, it was also there to show the start of the Superman/Batman friendship, which happened before the whole "romance thing" that Morrison probably didn't even knew of.

No doubt, Morrison had other goals, and it wasn't his job to show that Supes needs Wondy. I just meant that if he had, for whatever reason, used WW instead of BM, the balance between the characters would be perceived as better than it is now. Just musing, not complaining.

If he had wanted to, I think he could have replaced Bruce 's investigation with Diana's outsider insight -- "So a reporter is someone who uses truth to defend the defenseless? And you stopped that to be..."responsible "? Man 's world is so weird sometimes."

[Nigel_Halsey]

Hmm it would be some pretty awkward Sex since Wondy hasn't had the talk about how it works with Men down there and Clark is also a Virgin.

So she didn't sleep with Trevor, I take it?

[Bluewing_A23]

So she didn't sleep with Trevor, I take it?

Clark is still a virgin? Maybe he already lost his virginity since high school or university, off panel.

[misslane38]

I can't wait till they sleep together. If Clark/Lois/Bat/Wondy fans are having aneurysms already going to any lengths they can to rip the organic and natural start to this story, they'll explode when that happens. Fun times.

No one's arguing that it's not organic, because Lord knows couples get together in all manner of ways. Rebound relationships are organic and natural, for example. My criticisms have mainly been character oriented. In brief, it appears Superman and Wonder Woman are getting together because they're lonely and too scared to actually risk what's necessary to be with the people they cared deeply for first, and Johns has chosen to write Diana as a completely different person -- one I like and respect a lot less -- than she is in Azzarello's book just so she can repeatedly require Superman to swoop in an provide her guidance, reassurance, and a lip lock.

Superman and Wonder Woman having sex is expected, at least by me, and that's fine. As a fan of Clark and Lois who watched Clark on Smallville experience sex for the first time with Lana Lang, I've come not to expect him to be a virgin until marriage. Since sex isn't marriage, and I don't see Superman and Wonder Woman ever heading to the altar, I anticipate sex with about as much enthusiasm as I've anticipated other aspects of their relationship. It's simply part of what it means to be in a relationship; it's not a marriage proposal. So, altogether it's not especially bothersome. But if I do find myself more bothered than I am predicting, I can take comfort in the loads of love making Lois and Clark have done in comics and live action (and may do again years from now), the sex they have in the Smallville comics, as well as the kissing they'll be doing for likely billions of viewers in Man of Steel this summer. Fun times, indeed.

[Sacred Knight]

I think that'll be fun too. It was my Superman status quo since I was 12 years old up to last year, and holds a special place for me. Its just yet another of many incarnations of Superman stories, so I greatly look forward to the chemistry in MOS. I don't have to knock one incarnation down just to build another one up.

Anyone think if and when Superman finds out about Batman's homing device, that Wonder Woman will actually be more pissed off than Superman will? Clark's got a bit more of an edge to him in this continuity, but Diana has more so, and I don't think she'll take kindly to being spied on, nor knowing that Superman's been spied on undeserving. Again I'm still hoping this is some misdirection and Batman isn't a tool about this, but if it is I'd love to see Diana threaten a boot up the backside of his cape.

[brettc1]

That said though, one gripe. Batman put that device on Superman's cape years ago. Microscopic vision hasn't picked up that thing yet? And I'm kinda bummed its being foreshadowed that Batman is going to have a problem with Superman and Wonder Woman. I'm digging their friendship and was hoping they'd pull a fast one and Bruce would be one of the few who trusted them. Perhaps that still will be the case. But him pretty emphatically telling the tribe Superman is his friend then spying on him kinda suggests a fallout.

Batman is smart. He doesn't put personal feeling ahead of the good of the planet.

[Sacred Knight]

Its not personal feeling, its being smart enough to know that a Superman of sound mind and body is of no threat to the planet. After five years of working together with the JL and as a duo and getting to know each other, Batman should know this by now. Even pre-Flashpoint Scowlman knew that some form of mental manipulation was the only way Superman would go bad and the only reason necessary to prepare to try and stop him. The idea that a Superman who decides to date a meta will lose that sound mind I maintain would be a pretty big slap in the face to his character and what he represents, and if that is the route they go hopefully Superman and Wonder Woman take massive offense (as they'd have right to) and just quit the League.

[brettc1]

Its not personal feeling, its being smart enough to know that a Superman of sound mind and body is of no threat to the planet. After five years of working together with the JLA and as a duo and getting to know each other, Batman should know this by now. Even pre-Flashpoint Scowlman knew that some form of mental manipulation was the only way Superman would go bad and the only reason necessary to prepare to try and stop him.

Girlfriends - the oldest form of mental manipulation known to man.

The initial problem doesnt even have to come from Clark and Diana themselves. There are lots of ways this can complicate things. Steve's experience was not an isolated incident - the media love you until they hate you, and when they stop selling stuff about how much Supes and WW are in love they will go looking for ways to tear them down. Based on Diana's reaction to Hal, that is not a good scenario.

There is also the obvious fear among some people that an alien and a demigod are going to have babies - DC's own version of mutant paranoia.

First off, the argument is oversimplified about human partners here. The argument isn't that human partners make them human it's that human partners challenge the privilege of their power and connect them in the most personal way to what it feels like to go through life on this earth without the privilege of superpowers. It's a reminder of the power that comes from within that has nothing to do with a physical body that bind us all together. It's about a personal connection and bond with the beauty that is humanity---flawed, sinful and yet capable of great things. Superman has articulated this on many occasions. It oversimplifies it to say that it's about "making them human." It's not. They aren't human. It's much deeper than that.

Superman and Wonder Woman actually are not human. That is part of their identity. Queer people are human beings no matter their sexual orientation and being human is part of their DNA. Humanity isn't an emotional identification there it's an actual physical species identification. There is extreme prejudice against gay people and there are those who, unfortunately, rob them of their dignity. But queer people do not have privilege. Superman and Wonder Woman both have privilege. I love them both and I believe they are both incredible heroes with their own struggles and pain and challenges. But they have privilege and power---they have the power to oppress. Comparing them to any marginalized group in order to make some kind of point about humanity is insulting. Batman also has privilege as he's a white male with alot of resources at his disposal. Clark was raised by poor parents but he has extreme physical privilege. Diana also has extreme physical privilege.



Superman and Wonder Woman have privilege and the power to oppress. They are not a marginalized group. That's not a good comparison in the slightest. The narrative shows us why they do NOT use that power to oppress and that's the central issue....how does the public come to trust and understand that these powerful people will NOT oppress them?

And yet, more often than not, the people who are deemed less "worthy" of these heroes are other humans for superficial and shallow reasons. If anything, the physical idolization that so often occurs of the couple due to their youth, stunning beauty and physical powers makes the opposite point from what you are saying as it encourages people to focus on what makes is similar in body only as opposed to in mind and heart.

Lois Lane has been degraded and put down because she's "human" because her breasts aren't as big, because her vagina isn't as hard, because her body is mortal, because she won't live as long. All superficial things that speak only to the body and are ways in which we degrade and downplay what truly matters as people---what is on the inside. There was a much stronger point to be made about the humanity within all of us and how we connect as different beings when Clark and Lois were still married. That actually made the point you are trying to make as it showed that love isn't defined by the physical or the superficial but by the love we feel on the inside for someone no matter our physical differences.

There is no greater social justice point being made here in celebrating a coupling of two people who both have extreme privilege and power and universally accepted beauty. Yes, both Clark and Diana are different and I don't doubt their feelings of pain or struggles. But ultimately, the reality is that these are two very powerful people who are universally beautiful.

Superman and Wonder Woman have privilege. Privilege means you have the power to oppress. They both do. Neither of them take that. That's part of what makes them incredible heroes because they could abuse that power but they don't. A huge inspiration to be sure. It makes for incredible stories to explore their refusal to abuse their power with our culture's fear of people (like say Luthor) who DO abuse their power. But the privilege aspect is always there.

brettc1 likes this

[Jabare]

Hmm it would be some pretty awkward Sex since Wondy hasn't had the talk about how it works with Men down there and Clark is also a Virgin. I would Pay for that Issue but its way to soon for them to start sleeping together though cause if they do it now people would only think its for shock value. You have to Build up the Tension for awhile before they jump each others bones. Only reason Bats gets all the Booty he gets is because He has been Known as a Mimetic Sex God for Decades. Superman is just getting out of the Old Stuffy Office Worker stereotype, Let him grow some more in the relationship before he knocks boots.

don't expect to see this anytime soon.

Clark is still a virgin? Maybe he already lost his virginity since high school or university, off panel.

Yeah he's a virgin. He can't have sex with average humans without killing them.

[unoaranya30]

Looks like this issue is selling pretty well. So far seems to be #1 in the US

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/...ver-the-world/

Pretty cool. I think DC is smart to pursue this.