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  1. #31
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    What a great issue, really seeing the long term relationships and character development, Batman and Superman are friends.

    What is really touching is the humanity of Superman and Wonder Woman. Johns is really stressing how humane these superhuman people are.

    The extent to which Superman is shown needing Diana was deftly done. It was imeediately clear how much he admired her honesty and compassion. The scene of visiting Smallville completely turned upside down the tradtional superhero date trope, ie don't reveal your Secret ID, or your past, and don't appear in public with your significant other.

    That was such trope subversion I lol'd.

    That Clark opened up so completely to Diana - without the tradition deception and lies was fun.

    The scene where Clark tells her it's her compassion, her never ending battle for truth and justice inspires him was both simple and compelling - He has the legacy of his late parents values, she arrived choosing the same mission herself.

    In short Superman's need for Diana was convincingly SHOWN in his choice of taking her home and revealing himself. Here I am he's saying him showing Diana his beginnings.

    Diana needs were more told - she needed to be reminded that her natural instincts were good despite the Cheetah episode, which was well done in terms of sharing the fight, and turning up the Cheetah as villain, although the Superman as a werecheetah was fixed a little easily. Aquaman was of course very useful. It was more a obvious by the numbers use of the narrative ie being told why Diana needs Superman by these events.

    This was somewhat emeliorated by the Art, and the use of eye shots which told us that Diana is attracted to Clark.

    The only thing that really cracked me up was that Bruce watching Diana and Kal at the end is pretty much exactly the story in Yale Stewarts brilliant JL8.

  2. #32
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    I was worried after JL #12 this would be rushed and nothing about this has been from what I am seeing. Johns has done really well building the romance of two younger iterations of the characters. In fact I think with every other issue it's like what people will gripe about today gets resolved in the next. Detractors always jumping the gun as they did with JL#12. Here are two people who have a lot in commmon. This one was clearly showing Clark's side ...his roots and past...and what he is. Johns in his latest interview on Comic Vine talks about SM/WW in #15 and he did mention before they will go to places important to both Clark and Diana...well we have him bring her to Smallville. I think it's Diana's turn next to take him...maybe to Themyscira? After such an emotional time for Diana...and she is a young woman...still adapting...she is not made is not made of stone, makes sense to me she would feeling the way she does. I think it showed how vulnerable Clark is too when he was in Smallville. I liked her told her that she decided to become a hero on her own steam, hinting admiration for it.

    Daniel's art really is superb and you can tell he loves (as he said) drawing them both. He gets such expressivenesss. It's great to see Superman taking the initiative and showing he is embracing this. A great contrast to Diana, who would be a little tentative after all that has happened to her in the world. Her ride has not been easy so far, has it?

    I think it shows two people finding a real connection. They are learning about each other as time goes on. Like most relationships. The courtship has just begun and waiting to see where Johns goes next with it.

    Oh and I really hope Batman is not going to do the paranoid Brother Eye thing but really is because he is concerned that Clark and Diana have been a little careless with being seen in public.
    Last edited by hellacre; 11-21-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    to be fair we've only seen this relationship played out in two issues so far. And these were Wonder Woman centric issues. She is dealing with the fall out from Graves and Steve and now her best friend Cheetah. I'm sure if the situaiton was reversed Wonder Woman would be comforting him.
    I can't judge stories based on hypotheticals. All I know is that it feels like I'm reading a lopsided love story. Instead of writing a story in which Superman and Wonder Woman come together because they are both learning from each other and receiving comfort from each other, it is Diana's struggles that have defined the raison d'etre of the relationship.

    As for relationships why can't he have both. I mean forging a relationship with someone when your not being honest is hard enough as it is, its even harder if you can't relate. I think its great than Supes and Wonder Woman find a common ground.
    I believe Superman should be able to have both types of relationships, but that's not what is happening right now. And it's not happening because Clark seems to be under the misapprehension that he cannot relate to or find common ground with humans outside of limited acquaintances and a vague sort of agape love for all humanity.

    Also they both have solo titles to flush out there characterizations more. I understad what your saying and your right at how Johns is portraying them, but I think that simply has to do with the story he is conveying.
    It is the story Johns is conveying, and there are aspects of that story and his portrayal of the characters that makes me uneasy.

    Wonder Woman's the focus of this arc she is the one dealing with all the non-stop trauma. And through it all she's hanging tough. I think she would have been okay even if Superman didn't console her, cause thats the kind of character she is, but every now and than people like to be consoled in my opinion. I don't know if Superman is guiding her so much as he is comforting her.
    Wonder Woman could have been the focus of this arc without more non-stop trauma building off of her previous bad experience with Graves and Steve. Right now, I can't agree with you that Diana is hanging tough. She seems to vacillate between hotheaded, to scared, to doubting herself in every issue. I don't know if Diana would be okay without Superman's guidance and comfort because that's not the story Johns is telling; his story is not conveying the message that that's the kind of character Diana is. Because it's not that she needs to be consoled every now and then when she's required support for three straight issues now.

    I know where 14 issues in but Johns is still solidifying the JL team. The re-sounding point of Issue #6 was that this was a ragtag group that came together by happenstance and not a real team. They just pretended to be one to make the public feel better and benefit from the positive attention. 5 years later we see they haven't become very close.
    I still can't believe how incompetent this team is five years on. It's ridiculous.

    All of the Justice League members have their flaws. Supes seems a little too withdrawn and quite on the team. I mean outside of Batman and Wonder Woman he isn't as talkative with the others. And Johsn doesn't write him nearly as vocal as Morison does, infact he comes off kind of shy.
    The inconsistency in characterization between this book and the solo titles is maddening.

  4. #34
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    What a great issue, really seeing the long term relationships and character development, Batman and Superman are friends.
    Batman and Superman being friends wasn't a development or developed. It's a pre-established fact.

    What is really touching is the humanity of Superman and Wonder Woman. Johns is really stressing how humane these superhuman people are.
    How?

    The extent to which Superman is shown needing Diana was deftly done. It was imeediately clear how much he admired her honesty and compassion. The scene of visiting Smallville completely turned upside down the tradtional superhero date trope, ie don't reveal your Secret ID, or your past, and don't appear in public with your significant other.
    Superman admiring Diana's honesty and compassion is not a way to show he needs her. Did he rely on her honesty and compassion in this issue? No, he did not. Also, that trope only applies to superhero/civilian relationships. Superman keeps the secret of his dual identity and his Kryptonian past from people who he perceives as less vulnerable than super or meta beings. It takes more courage to take the chance on revealing yourself like that, and it also takes self-awareness and humility considering Superman and Wonder Woman are positively deluding themselves if they think they're less in danger. It astounds me the hypocrisy of Diana to freak out about Steve getting hurt because of his closeness to her and her world, yet Flash and Superman get hurt (and survive just as Steve did) but she's not pushing them away.

    That Clark opened up so completely to Diana - without the tradition deception and lies was fun.
    It's meaningless when there's nothing to fear. Let me give you an example. My mother always wanted to travel to Paris because she studied art and wanted to see the museums and other sites there. She's also afraid to fly, though. She still hasn't gone. It takes courage to go out of your comfort zone, to take a risk, and to go after what you really want. If you stick around the familiar just because you have less to fear, it is sympathetic but it's also just sad and uninspiring.

    The scene where Clark tells her it's her compassion, her never ending battle for truth and justice inspires him was both simple and compelling - He has the legacy of his late parents values, she arrived choosing the same mission herself.
    Given that, doesn't it bother you that Superman had to reaffirm in Diana that which he admired about her. Why would Johns go out of his way in back to back stories throwing Diana's loved ones from the past in her face just so Superman can swoop in and fix something she had all along. It turns something wonderful about her and makes it all about him.

    In short Superman's need for Diana was convincingly SHOWN in his choice of taking her home and revealing himself. Here I am he's saying him showing Diana his beginnings.
    How does Superman showing Diana his home to make her feel better and inspire her show how much he needed her? He took her there for her sake, and not for his.

    The only thing that really cracked me up was that Bruce watching Diana and Kal at the end is pretty much exactly the story in Yale Stewarts brilliant JL8.
    I think it was creepy. However, as a result, it does mirror some of the foreboding we saw before with Booster spying on Superman and Wonder Woman's first kiss. The similarity suggests a recurring theme that their relationship will cause trouble for reasons that may be justified or unjustified. Regardless, it is an ominous sign more especially because of the contrast between the bucolic setting of the kiss and the darkness looming with Batman. This will be a test, I think, and we'll see what bonds survive and in what forms.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-21-2012 at 12:20 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    What a great issue, really seeing the long term relationships and character development, Batman and Superman are friends.
    Yeah, this New 52 Batman is a kind, caring friend...but then there's the last page. lol. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    What is really touching is the humanity of Superman and Wonder Woman. Johns is really stressing how humane these superhuman people are.

    The extent to which Superman is shown needing Diana was deftly done. It was imeediately clear how much he admired her honesty and compassion. The scene of visiting Smallville completely turned upside down the tradtional superhero date trope, ie don't reveal your Secret ID, or your past, and don't appear in public with your significant other.

    That Clark opened up so completely to Diana - without the tradition deception and lies was fun.
    Clark and Diana's scenes easily made the whole book.

    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    The scene where Clark tells her it's her compassion, her never ending battle for truth and justice inspires him was both simple and compelling - He has the legacy of his late parents values, she arrived choosing the same mission herself.
    Yeah, that was a great moment. In a time when she is doubting her instincts, Clark is there to remind her that she alone chose to fight for truth and justice.
    Last edited by ABH-1979; 11-21-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Did WW do something useful during the fight with Cheetah?
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  7. #37
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    Kicked her off a cliff into a river so Aquaman could do the actual work.

  8. #38
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I was worried after JL #12 this would be rushed and nothing about this has been from what I am seeing. Johns has done really well building the romance of two younger iterations of the characters. In fact I think with every other issue it's like what people will gripe about today gets resolved in the next. Detractors always jumping the gun as they did with JL#12.
    The pace issue to issue is slow just by virtue of it being monthly. The actual events are all taking place within less than a few days, if I'm not mistaken. And, by the way, all my gripes still exist.

    After such an emotional time for Diana...and she is a young woman...still adapting...she is not made is not made of stone, makes sense to me she would feeling the way she does.
    She's not that young and her world as shown in Azzarello's book is hardly the kind of place that would make a person naive or unfamiliar with difficult emotions or experiences. Her feelings do make sense, though, I agree. I just think it's getting tiresome to repeatedly create situations where Superman has to guide her. In the last issue, he had to push her to accept help. In this one, it's to not lose hope. Their relationship has been crafted by Johns manipulating the narrative, as is his job as the writer, to emphasize her dependence on Superman for reassurance and guidance on all things heroic.

    Daniel's art really is superb and you can tell he loves (as he said) drawing them both. He gets such expressivenesss. It's great to see Superman taking the initiative and showing he is embracing this. A great contrast to Diana, who would be a little tentative after all that has happened to her in the world. Her ride has not been easy so far, has it?
    Why wouldn't Superman's life be just as full of experiences that would make him tentative? He's had losses and likely had few to no relationships. Yet, they decide to emphasize Diana's temerity. I wonder why...

    Oh and I really hope Batman is not going to do the paranoid Brother Eye thing but really is because he is concerned that Clark and Diana have been a little careless with being seen in public.
    It seems much more serious than that, but that's just a gut feeling of mine.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I was worried after JL #12 this would be rushed and nothing about this has been from what I am seeing. Johns has done really well building the romance of two younger iterations of the characters. In fact I think with every other issue it's like what people will gripe about today gets resolved in the next. Detractors always jumping the gun as they did with JL#12. Here are two people who have a lot in commmon. This one was clearly showing Clark's side ...his roots and past...and what he is. Johns in his latest interview on Comic Vine talks about SM/WW in #15 and he did mention before they will go to places important to both Clark and Diana...well we have him bring her to Smallville. I think it's Diana's turn next to take him...maybe to Themyscira? After such an emotional time for Diana...and she is a young woman...still adapting...she is not made of stone, makes sense to me she would feeling the way she does. I think it showed how vulnerable Clark is too when he was in Smallville. I liked her told her that she decided to become a hero on her own steam, hinting admiration for it.
    Yeah, I almost didn't get this issue, because I didn't love the last one, and I'm not a big Daniel fan, but I'm really glad I did. These were good moments of growth, not just for the SM/WW relationship, but for the relationship of the Justice League, overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Daniel's art really is superb and you can tell he loves (as he said) drawing them both. He gets such expressivenesss. It's great to see Superman taking the initiative and showing he is embracing this. A great contrast to Diana, who would be a little tentative after all that has happened to her in the world. Her ride has not been easy so far, has it?
    Again, I'm not the biggest Daniel fan, but he was really good here. Even that last page, with peeper-Batman, was probably the best drawing he's ever done of the Caped Crusader. But the real attention was given to Clark and Diana, and rightly so. Still, we should give some credit to the colorist, because that's what is really making the page pop.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    I think it shows two people finding a real connection. They are learning about each other as time goes on. Like most relationships. The courtship has just begun and waiting to see where Johns goes next with it.
    I like how these two very powerful people, are still moving relatively slow and really getting to know each other. This relationship hasn't been as rushed as many thought it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Oh and I really hope Batman is not going to do the paranoid Brother Eye thing but really is because he is concerned that Clark and Diana have been a little careless with being seen in public.
    Who knows, but according to JLI, we know the whole Brother Eye thing did happen in the New 52 and Batman is still the "creator." So, he's either truly concerned for his friend(s), or his concern lies elsewhere.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Yeah, this New 52 Batman is a kind, caring friend...but then there's the last page. lol. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    Yes, but the great development we've seen goes from helping each other ( also in Action ) to not stealing each other girlfriends ( lol ) to Batman almost pleading for Superman's fate - because he's his friend - it was the best moment of the Werecheetah episode, not to see that development - well you'd have to IDK, maybe not read the book, but glanced at it say.

    The flipside of seeing him watching Diana and Clark was interesting, but narratively given his romantic track record - hardly surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Clark and Diana's scenes easily made the whole book.
    Absolutely - the Cheetah story was very by numbers, although Johns did use each character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Yeah, that was a great moment. In a time when she is doubting her instincts, Clark is there to remind her that she alone chose to fight for truth and justice.
    It was all about Superman showing why he needed Diana by being an open book, and not holding back. Diana didn't need her lasso to see the truth. He just showed her and embraced her values because of a common purpose and experience, something any other mortal just wouldn't be able to appreciate first hand.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Nice issue. Supes and Wonder Woman really complete each other. She needs him as much as he needs her
    My usual perception is that they need nothing from each other, which is what makes this particular superguy dating this particular supergal even more craptastic.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    My usual perception is that they need nothing from each other, which is what makes this particular superguy dating this particular supergal even more craptastic.
    "Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.' Mature love says: 'I need you because I love you.'"
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    Yes, but the great development we've seen goes from helping each other ( also in Action ) to not stealing each other girlfriends ( lol ) to Batman almost pleading for Superman's fate - because he's his friend - it was the best moment of the Werecheetah episode, not to see that development - well you'd have to IDK, maybe not read the book, but glanced at it say.
    Yes, and it almost makes me wish we had a new Superman/Batman book, to see a bit more of the (real) "World's Finest" Bromance. Given time, I know we will, but I don't think DC is eager to dust off that title.

    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    The flipside of seeing him watching Diana and Clark was interesting, but narratively given his romantic track record - hardly surprising.
    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out when Bruce confronts Clark (or vice versa). Will the issue be about inter-league romances, or just the idea of a romance with a fellow "super," or something else entirely?

    Quote Originally Posted by rude.cherub View Post
    It was all about Superman showing why he needed Diana by being an open book, and not holding back. Diana didn't need her lasso to see the truth. He just showed her and embraced her values because of a common purpose and experience, something any other mortal just wouldn't be able to appreciate first hand.
    Yeah, these a mighty beings, but they still need each others' strength, as friends, allies and more.
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  14. #44

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    Won't have a chance to pick it up til next week but have had a chance to see some scans. Exciting to see the romance being taken seriously and slow. Looks like they are going to take their time establishing the Wondy/Supes relationship and not jus throw I away like last time.

    Can't wait to pick it up.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out when Bruce confronts Clark (or vice versa). Will the issue be about inter-league romances, or just the idea of a romance with a fellow "super," or something else entirely?
    It's Bruce's nature to plan for any contingency, so that has to play out, but his own experience will colour his world view. Equally Diana isn't Talia or Selina, and Diana and Clark isn't like her 'relationship' with Steve Trevor, which given what we know was IMO appropriate, not only was she 'fresh off the boat' ie she had no experience of men/mens world culture, plus Trevor given rank/position must be a decade her senior ( ie similar age to Bruce ) and of course much more worldly wise - worise in an effective position of trust as he laison.

    Equally Johns may be foreshadowing using Bruce to show the 'rest of the world' reaction to Diana and Clarks public relationship, or some of the world, especially those who see Super's as "Alien", ie a threat - so at this point the pressure on them is external. Again Johns subverts the usual internal pressure in Super hero dating where that pressure is derived from keeping the secret ID secret etc, and imeediate first person threat of harm, which Johns notably showed us with Steve Trevor & Graves/Cheetah. The threat comes from the wider worlds prejudice against people who are different.

    For example the tired argument that goes - they aren't human, so they should have human relationships to make the human

    ( like they're gay so having a straight relationship will keep them human )

    - so by allowing this natural pairing becomes a way of portraying how prejudice limits the definition human to people who are like us - which is why superheroes are a great way to deal with the exclusion of minorities.

    When of course they are both human, it's not super-alien or wonder-god but two people who happen to be differently abled - their humanity, ie their capacity to be humane, kind, compassionate, all the good human traits is why these characters were created. To present the argument that the powerful should help the powerless.

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