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  1. #136
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by refrax5 View Post
    There are a lot of ways to relate to a character and I don't think a character's faults necessarily make them more relatable. Look at Wolverine for example. His life story isn't anything a normal person would understand and his faults are basically that he is programmed to be a murderer and has to fight it constantly. Yet people love him. I don't know anyone even remotely like that guy or who is constantly struggling with their homicidal urges, but people still love that character.

    Steve, while I'm not nearly as virtuous or pure as he is, is a character I have some things in common with. I was picked on growing up and my dad was a drunk. I was always close to my mom who is a very kind, strong person who kicked him out. And Steve, I think, like a lot of people who are bullied and stepped on, wanted to prove himself on some level. I get that, too. I don't think his motivation is as simplistic as him just being a great guy. He is a really decent person, but I like that part in the Cap movie where he's talking about all the selfless reasons for doing what he does and Bucky goes, "Right. 'Cause you've got nothing to prove."

    Also, I have known people in my life who are just genuinely nice, decent people like Steve Rogers. It doesn't mean they're perfect or never make mistakes. They just are genuinely kind hearted and upright people. While I understand what you're saying to a degree, I never entirely buy that the only way a character is relateable is to make them dark and edgy or deeply flawed. There's nothing wrong with characters like that, but it isn't the only way to do it.
    It's not so much that Steve Rogers is just a nice guy, because people in the Armed Forces try to be like Steve Rogers, and they are interesting people. But Steve gets away with it at the highest level, much like our General Cosgrove from Australia. Steve Rogers is like a President on the field of battle, who says and does all the right things, and doesn't break the rules. He has the authority of nothing else on earth, and only Thor has the same authority in the MU. It's a very commendable character, but nobody I know acts like that, because nobody has the authority Steve Rogers gets away with. Now, someone like that couldn't come out of a vacuum. The Steve Rogers from the Cap movie steps out of a vacuum, because we don't find out his family ethics at all, and he is just a struggler as a sickly kid. He reminds me of a friend of mine I met when he ws 11, and his mum always kept him at home because he was so sick. His father left when he was about 7, and when he got to Tech School, he turned into this determined and unrelenting basketballer, that he led us without him being Captain. Humble beginnings can have striking effects on someone's character. Maybe Steve Rogers doesn't want to let down anybody like he was let down. Maybe Steve Rogers should be shown to be this driven soul, who we learn has taken up a mission with a distinctive cause. I want to see the distinctive cause and then I can relate to his mission a little more. Be the Peter Parker who has leant the tragic lessen.
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-25-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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  2. #137
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    Logan is an alcoholic, has serious anger issues, has a checkered past, misbegotten children, relationship drama, etc. I think those are pretty relatable issues, it's just it's a superhero book, so the children are born with claws and his relationship drama involves a blue woman who's a super-terrorist shapeshifter
    An alcoholic who doesn't get drunk, and has a lot of issues being he's been abused to beyond many degrees even amongst those around him like Xavier and Cyke.

  3. #138
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    It's not so much that Steve Rogers is just a nice guy, because people in the Armed Forces try to be like Steve Rogers, and they are interesting people. But Steve gets away with it at the highest level, much like our General Cosgrove from Australia. Steve Rogers is like a President on the field of battle, who says and does all the right things, and doesn't break the rules. He has the authority of nothing else on earth, and only Thor has the same authority in the MU. It's a very commendable character, but nobody I know acts like that, because nobody has the authority Steve Rogers gets away with. Now, someone like that couldn't come out of a vacuum. The Steve Rogers from the Cap movie steps out of a vacuum, because we don't find out his family ethics at all, and he is just a struggler as a sickly kid. He reminds me of a friend of mind I met when he ws 11, and his mum always kept him at home because he was so sick. His father left when he was about 7, and when he got to Tech School, he turned into this determined and unrelenting basketballer, that he led us without him being Captain. Humble beginnings can have striking effects on someone's character. Maybe Steve Rogers doesn't want to let down anybody like he was let down. Maybe Steve Rogers should be shown to be this driven soul, who we learn has taken up a mission with a distinctive cause. I want to see the distinctive cause and then I can relate to his mission a little more. Be the Peter Parker who has leant the tragic lessen.
    Not true he doesn't get away with everything, in CW or rather the end, guy was going to jail, was tried, and got shot in the Head. It's funny though many on the X-Forum love to over look that fact and act as if he never pays for everything at all.

  4. #139
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hariel0079 View Post
    An alcoholic who doesn't get drunk, and has a lot of issues being he's been abused to beyond many degrees even amongst those around him like Xavier and Cyke.
    Logan has immense character to overcome the savagery of his torture and indoctrination, and still function as a human being now. That immensity of character is what makes him interesting, because you can look at where he comes from and see that Logan had to have put in a great effort to be what he is today. The struggle Logan had to go through from rejected by his mother, to a long living mutant, and the brutalizing at the hands of the government, yet, he still becomes this messiah of the mutants. That's what puts him out there as a character that people can appreciate as a hero.

    Tell me what Steve Roges did?
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  5. #140
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post

    Tell me what Steve Roges did?

    IDK, A lot, I'd explain in a long post but i have the strangest feeling you'd dis acknowledge it like other aspects to steve rodgers... like IDK the ending of CW

  6. #141
    Member refrax5's Avatar
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    Steve has broken the rules plenty of times. He abandoned being Captain America more than once and led an actual revolt against the government. I don't think he always says or does the right thing, either. There have been plenty of times where the character has come off as a completely pompous, holier-than-thou ass or dangerously naive or hotheaded.

    And as I already said, Rogers is a guy who had a really hard life. He had an abusive father, was beaten on all the time and was a frail, sickly kid who risked everything to make a difference. Like I said, despite having a sense of duty and honor that motivated him----which obviously people have in real life---he clearlyhad a bit of a chip on his shoulder and a need to prove himself. His distaste of tyrants and bullies has a definitely personal element to it.

    Again, why does he need to learn a tragic lesson like Peter Parker? I think a kid with everything stacked against him who fights like hell to prove himself is a pretty relatable and reasonable motivation.

    And what you're saying about Wolverine's relatability kind of proves my point. No one is actually like him, or very few people are. He's relatable in an allegorical way. Just like few people are as upstanding as Rogers, most people aren't tortured government hitmen turned teachers. Most people don't really act like that. Both characters are, in many ways, extreme examples of human beings. I don't think Wolverine being particularly miserable and crazy as opposed to heroic and kind makes him particularly more compelling or relatable.

  7. #142
    Member CaptainLiberty76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Captain America is a throwback to days of holding doors open for women, not swearing, going to church and being god fearing. He is unbelievable. People don't relate to someone who has no faults. The best you can do for CA is to break him down and put him in situations where you learn what it is that makes him what he is. If we understood it better, we could see the truth and sincerity that he represents. As it is, he is too much apple pie and red white and blue.
    Uhhhh...jackolover...if Cap is a 'throwback,' then I am as well. I STILL hold doors open for women, I choose NOT to swear, I go to church and I am God-fearing. But I, like Cap, have PLENTY of faults and flaws...I relate to Cap quite nicely, thank you, that is probably why he is my favorite character from Marvel (as Supes is my favorite from DC). I guess us 'throwbacks' have to be a little more vocal...those ideals are what is needed in this sad and harsh society of our day. Take care.
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  8. #143
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    I know I'm just echoing the viewpoints of several other earlier posters, I can't stand the fact that JRJ is doing the art for this. Whether it's this title, or Kick-Ass (or Hit-Girl) or his run on the Avengers, I just can't get past the fact that EVERY character looks the same, just with a different name. And I find the campiness of the book too much of a change from the Brubaker run.

    I dunno, maybe one more issue, but I'm probably going to have to let this title drop off my monthly pull. And it pains me to do so since I'm such a CA fan (I have a dang tattoo of him in fact!).

    Maybe once JRJ leaves the book I can pick it back up again.

  9. #144
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by refrax5 View Post
    Steve has broken the rules plenty of times. He abandoned being Captain America more than once and led an actual revolt against the government. I don't think he always says or does the right thing, either. There have been plenty of times where the character has come off as a completely pompous, holier-than-thou ass or dangerously naive or hotheaded.

    And as I already said, Rogers is a guy who had a really hard life. He had an abusive father, was beaten on all the time and was a frail, sickly kid who risked everything to make a difference. Like I said, despite having a sense of duty and honor that motivated him----which obviously people have in real life---he clearlyhad a bit of a chip on his shoulder and a need to prove himself. His distaste of tyrants and bullies has a definitely personal element to it.

    Again, why does he need to learn a tragic lesson like Peter Parker? I think a kid with everything stacked against him who fights like hell to prove himself is a pretty relatable and reasonable motivation.

    And what you're saying about Wolverine's relatability kind of proves my point. No one is actually like him, or very few people are. He's relatable in an allegorical way. Just like few people are as upstanding as Rogers, most people aren't tortured government hitmen turned teachers. Most people don't really act like that. Both characters are, in many ways, extreme examples of human beings. I don't think Wolverine being particularly miserable and crazy as opposed to heroic and kind makes him particularly more compelling or relatable.
    Every kid in the Bronx grew up like Steve Rogers, so all of them would make a great Captain America if they got the Super Soldier Serum. My point is what makes Rogers so special? We can see what makes Logan so special because he had a special road to becoming a teacher. But Rogers? Come on. Nice guys finish last. I want to know why Rogers finished first.
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  10. #145
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Captain America is a throwback to days of holding doors open for women, not swearing, going to church and being god fearing. He is unbelievable. People don't relate to someone who has no faults. The best you can do for CA is to break him down and put him in situations where you learn what it is that makes him what he is. If we understood it better, we could see the truth and sincerity that he represents. As it is, he is too much apple pie and red white and blue.
    I think you're overgeneralizing here. Steve doesn't force his beliefs on anyone and despite what alot of people think, he isn't that preachy. There were also the times that Steve gave up being Cap, disillusioned in about his own country. Steve has, killed, maimed and incapacitated many individuals so he's not a saint. Some writers outside of his own title try to portray Steve as some elitist sanctimonious do-gooder but that's only because they're trying to contrast they're own character against him.

    If you want a pretty good portrayal of Steve outside of his own title, then read Frank Miller's interpretation of him in Daredevil's Born Again. His Cap resembles Brubaker's alot.
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  11. #146
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Every kid in the Bronx grew up like Steve Rogers, so all of them would make a great Captain America if they got the Super Soldier Serum. My point is what makes Rogers so special? We can see what makes Logan so special because he had a special road to becoming a teacher. But Rogers? Come on. Nice guys finish last. I want to know why Rogers finished first.
    If that were true, then the first person they interviewed in Brooklyn would have become Captain America.
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  12. #147
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Steve Rogers was a 95 pound weakling. His genes made him into a sickly kid who would deteriorate into a nobody. Surely that would affect his psychological makeup and make Steve Rogers a morbid depressive. What Marvel are saying is that inside all the sickly people in the world is this great hero fighting to get out except for this DNA they have in them, which makes them weak.
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  13. #148
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    I think you're overgeneralizing here. Steve doesn't force his beliefs on anyone and despite what alot of people think, he isn't that preachy. There were also the times that Steve gave up being Cap, disillusioned in about his own country. Steve has, killed, maimed and incapacitated many individuals so he's not a saint. Some writers outside of his own title try to portray Steve as some elitist sanctimonious do-gooder but that's only because they're trying to contrast they're own character against him.

    If you want a pretty good portrayal of Steve outside of his own title, then read Frank Miller's interpretation of him in Daredevil's Born Again. His Cap resembles Brubaker's alot.
    I'm pretty sure I read that arc, but I can't recall Cap in that. Was he like in it for 2 pages, or was it longer?
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  14. #149
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    I really liked the first issue of Remender's run. I was shocked when we find out that Sharon propsed to him. JRJr.'s art was great, but then I've always liked his art. I thought the flashback scene was done well, and then tied into him getting tortured/experimented on by Zola and the "Just stand up" line worked. The Green Skull was pretty cool in a campy sort of way. All in all I say 10/10. There wasn't anything that I didn't like about it. Just my opinion, though.
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  15. #150
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Steve Rogers was a 95 pound weakling. His genes made him into a sickly kid who would deteriorate into a nobody. Surely that would affect his psychological makeup and make Steve Rogers a morbid depressive. What Marvel are saying is that inside all the sickly people in the world is this great hero fighting to get out except for this DNA they have in them, which makes them weak.
    No, what Marvel is saying is that at that time this one kid was exceptional enough survive the process both mentally and physically without going batshitcrazy.

    Applying your logic, the same could be said of Peter Parker.
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