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Thread: Ender vs Bean

  1. #1

    Default Ender vs Bean

    Andrew Wiggin vs Julian Delphiki II

    Both are battle school version

    Both are given equal number of soldiers to play their squad-based war game

    Who would win?

    If Bean had lead instead of Ender in the Formic war what would happen?

    If Ender was the one to face Achilles on Earth instead of Bean what happens?

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    Why? WHY!?!?!?

    Card presented, outright STATED that Ender was the best possible during and after Ender's Game. Ender was also a much better character.

    Then he chases the money and comes up with a BETTER kid in Bean. And does it relatively poorly. WHY?!?!?!?

    Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead were amazing books. All of the others in both series were poor by comparison. It's sad - it's like Card decided that he no longer wanted Ender to be more-or-less superhumanly good, so he decided to try writing other characters above Ender's level in various things. All this did is sully Ender while giving us cheap plastic replicas of exactly his strong points.

    Now, for your test here:

    1. Bean, at Battle School, has no real chance against Ender. Ender, once he really got going, inspired love and dedication. Bean was probably as good a commander in school where it isn't lethal, but didn't come close to Ender's ability to inspire.

    2. Bean probably would have done about as well in the contrived situation that was the second Formic War, based on his contributions to that effort as well as his retconned history at school, as Ender did. Still a win for humanity.

    3. The easiest answer of the three, since it happened two other times to Ender in similar fashion. Had Achilles messed with Ender like he did Bean, Ender would have lived up to his nickname and ended his ass. Ender-as-child is attacked twice by other, considerably larger, kids seeking to do him physical harm, and both of those kids died horribly. You do not mess with Ender Wiggin in a physical confrontation unless you want to die. It's really that simple.

  3. #3
    Senior Member AJ Valliant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Why? WHY!?!?!?

    Card presented, outright STATED that Ender was the best possible during and after Ender's Game. Ender was also a much better character.

    Then he chases the money and comes up with a BETTER kid in Bean. And does it relatively poorly. WHY?!?!?!?

    Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead were amazing books. All of the others in both series were poor by comparison. It's sad - it's like Card decided that he no longer wanted Ender to be more-or-less superhumanly good, so he decided to try writing other characters above Ender's level in various things. All this did is sully Ender while giving us cheap plastic replicas of exactly his strong points.

    \.
    Well, that saves me some time. I don't want to get into author bashing so I will just say the books following Bean are lesser works that undermine the first two to an degree that makes applying their feats uncomfortable. If forced I'd say Ender still wins a conflict between the child versions due to his physical superiority and due to a personal charisma that would allow him to rally allies.

    If we apply the feats from the later books Ender surrenders and weeps silently at what has become of his life.

    A rumble I'd like to see. Ender vs Peter if Ender had stayed on earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Valliant View Post
    A rumble I'd like to see. Ender vs Peter if Ender had stayed on earth.
    That could be interesting, though Ender was always just so much better than Peter, even in the books Peter was starring in. He was never as smart as Ender and never had close to the charisma.

    Best feats...

    Peter took over the Hegemony as an adult, with TONS of help from superior intellects. Plus, even though he planned the whole Demosthenes and Locke thing, Valentine was at least as responsable for him winning the hearts and minds, and then, though he got himself named Hegemon when it didn't matter, Bean let him win the battles he fought to MAKE it matter.

    Ender, as the smartest and most capable person around, annihilated an entire alien species that was a thousand times more advanced than humans were, with no more than a token force in most battles, and then /brought that species back from the dead/.

    In a rumble, he wins against Peter simply because he has good combat feats - everyone who fights with him except for his wife's charging, knife-wielding 6-year old son, well, dies brutally. Said 6-year-old gets picked up into the air so fast that nobody around can see what Ender does, and the knife winds up harmlessly buried in the ceiling. Granted, the people watching weren't exactly Batman, but the narrative indicates that he moved with blinding-for-a-human speed. Peter's really got nothing along those lines. Also, Ender grows up into a large man, by descriptions.

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    Strrrrrrrrrrrrex mailedbypostman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    In a rumble, he wins against Peter simply because he has good combat feats - everyone who fights with him except for his wife's charging, knife-wielding 6-year old son, well, dies brutally. Said 6-year-old gets picked up into the air so fast that nobody around can see what Ender does, and the knife winds up harmlessly buried in the ceiling. Granted, the people watching weren't exactly Batman, but the narrative indicates that he moved with blinding-for-a-human speed. Peter's really got nothing along those lines. Also, Ender grows up into a large man, by descriptions.
    Was the six year old son the kid he held back from engaging fully in a recent book?

    I always held back from reading the later books because of lack of Ender and Achilles.
    Strrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrex

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    Quote Originally Posted by mailedbypostman1 View Post
    Was the six year old son the kid he held back from engaging fully in a recent book?

    I always held back from reading the later books because of lack of Ender and Achilles.
    It was in Speaker for the Dead, the youngest kid of the woman he marries. Ender gets to the planet, called as "a" speaker for the dead (even though he was "the" speaker for the dead for 3000 years), and the little psycho charges him with a knife. Ender picks him up, spins him around and buries the knife in the ceiling. Honestly, I only mentioned it because it's the only person who ever survived getting into a fight with Ender. He was a killer at 5. Basically, and this is the reason he was chosen for his mission, he instinctively hits back hard enough to ensure that whoever attacked him will never do so again.

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    Pilot of Gurren Kamina's Avatar
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    So Bean becomes a better Ender Wiggin than Ender Wiggin...

    Now I really want to read the rest of that series.

  8. #8
    Anti-Matter Eyes Eternal Torment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    It was in Speaker for the Dead, the youngest kid of the woman he marries. Ender gets to the planet, called as "a" speaker for the dead (even though he was "the" speaker for the dead for 3000 years), and the little psycho charges him with a knife. Ender picks him up, spins him around and buries the knife in the ceiling. Honestly, I only mentioned it because it's the only person who ever survived getting into a fight with Ender. He was a killer at 5. Basically, and this is the reason he was chosen for his mission, he instinctively hits back hard enough to ensure that whoever attacked him will never do so again.
    Only person?

    You forget Mazer Rackham. :P

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    Senior Member AJ Valliant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamina View Post
    So Bean becomes a better Ender Wiggin than Ender Wiggin...

    Now I really want to read the rest of that series.
    Preserve your memories. Card declined qualitywise in his later books. By a depressing amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Valliant View Post
    Preserve your memories. Card declined qualitywise in his later books. By a depressing amount.
    Fans said the same thing about Heroes and Sliders.

    I'll judge for myself. I wasn't too happy with the ending of Ender's Game anyway. Were all of the later books focused on Bean? Did anymore of them focus on Ender and Valentine post-war?

  11. #11

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    The first topic was base off a discussion I had with a friend.

    One of us stated that Bean was only interested in learning and doesn't care about wining when he was left with his own toon. If he really wanted too he would of won against Ender if given a army of equal talent. Base off the fact that Bean was more intelligent then anyone at battle school. And it was his push that lead Ender to victory over the Formic. So a blood lust Bean intent on wining would not lose to Ender.

    The other stated that it doesn't matter if Bean was the smartest since Ender is the better leader. Ender main advantage is that he doesn't rely on himself. He is so good at leading, and inspiring that he tends to bring out the best with those under his command. So it wouldn't be just Ender that Beans has to defeat. It would be his whole army. While on Bean side it's more on Bean own ability to succeed.

    So we decide to toss it out here to see how other weigh in.

    The other two are just for fun. A battle between the Wiggin would be interesting.

    In a life and death confrontation, Ender opponent usually end up dead. There was a incident with Bean son. I forgot his name. He was a gaint as all of Beans childern are. It was a great look into how physical confrontation with Ender works. He was barely able to hold back his instinct to kill Bean son while he was getting a brutal beating, that may have resulted with him dying. Ender has a strong dose of survive/killer instinct.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamina View Post
    Fans said the same thing about Heroes and Sliders.

    I'll judge for myself. I wasn't too happy with the ending of Ender's Game anyway. Were all of the later books focused on Bean? Did anymore of them focus on Ender and Valentine post-war?
    Just the Shadow series are more focus on Bean. The shadow series are also more military focus. If a teenage Ender had face a teenage Bean in a blood lust combat. Good odds are Bean would win. Bean became quite the soldier.

  13. #13
    Senior Member AJ Valliant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamina View Post
    Fans said the same thing about Heroes and Sliders.

    I'll judge for myself. I wasn't too happy with the ending of Ender's Game anyway. Were all of the later books focused on Bean? Did anymore of them focus on Ender and Valentine post-war?
    He did a fill in book (Ender in Exile) from just after to war to before Speaker for the Dead. I had been waiting to read about that period for over a decade and was thrilled at the idea. I didn't even finish it. It is very hard for me not to finish a book. I don't want to talk you out of it, as it may be to your tastes, but even as someone who loved the first two books, liked the third, and slugged through the Bean stuff...I found it unreadable. Not just not what I wanted, but flat and amateurish. I have no idea what happened, but it read like lazy fanfic.

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    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamina View Post
    Fans said the same thing about Heroes and Sliders.
    Your point being...?

    It's moot any way, I can't bear to buy the new books new: I have to wait to find them used these days.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Valliant View Post
    He did a fill in book (Ender in Exile) from just after to war to before Speaker for the Dead. I had been waiting to read about that period for over a decade and was thrilled at the idea. I didn't even finish it. It is very hard for me not to finish a book. I don't want to talk you out of it, as it may be to your tastes, but even as someone who loved the first two books, liked the third, and slugged through the Bean stuff...I found it unreadable. Not just not what I wanted, but flat and amateurish. I have no idea what happened, but it read like lazy fanfic.
    Sounds about like what I did:

    LOVED EG and SFTD
    Accepted Xeno as between "good" and "a necessary evil" - it was OK, but when I reread it, I skipped any pages that involved prolonged discussions of OCD - god that was boring and tedious.
    Children of the Mind - eh, it was OK, but nothing like the first two.
    Fought through the Bean books - it was OK, but it really seemed like Card jsut decided that the didn't like Ender anymore - which seems odd, given that Ender won him consecutive hugo and Nebula awards, making it, I believe, still the only series to accomplish that in two books.
    Never even heard about the Ender in Exile book.
    And Amazon tells me that there is also now a "Shadows in Flight" book with more Bean-ness.

    Anyway, back to the Rumble - Bean himself says that Ender is a better leader, plus Ender has better leadership feats, and Ender's personal combat feats are WAY past Bean's. I don't see any way to justify anyone picking Bean to win even a majority over Ender in really any fight situation. Definitely not in Battle School days, and probably not after. Bean probably has the edge in pure strategy, long term planning and raw intellect, but Ender dominates in battlefield tactics, personal combat, leadership and charisma.

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