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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Reading through several pages of back-and-forth semantics and dismissal of valid critiques, I wonder if we could apply Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' Stages to this forum? Particularly her thoughts on Denial!
    I accept that some people here are in denial.
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  2. #287
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I'm pretty sure Ambush Bug had a mini series, that doesn't make him popular)?
    You're wrong: he's had at least 2 or 3 mini series...and was on Batman B&B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Off the top of my head; Dick, Roy, Starfire, Wally.
    Also: Babs was in Titans West as Batgirl and JL as Oracle.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Reading through several pages of back-and-forth semantics and dismissal of valid critiques, I wonder if we could apply Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' Stages to this forum? Particularly her thoughts on Denial!
    Just speaking for myself, I'm not in denial about the fact that this is a new continuity. It IS a new continuity. I'm not grieving the old continuity, because A. I can still reread the old stories and B. I like the new continuity. Some people are grieving the old continuity, and I respect that, but all I can say is that I don't consider the old continuity dead or dying as long as the old stories are out that to read. For me, grieving the loss of the old continuity would be like grieving that there aren't going to be any new plays by Shakespeare (except, for all I know, there actually could be new stories written in the old continuity at some point in the future.)

    And I don't think a new continuity is "disrespectful" as long as it honors the essence of the character and draws inspiration from the old stories in some way--which I have argued that the present story does. (This may seem like more "back-and-forth semantics" to you, but I think it's important to define our terms if we expect to understand each other.)

    But I think you may have put your finger on why some people feel they were misled. Azzarello laughingly said it was going to be a soft reboot, but he also said, more extensively and seriously, that he wasn't interested in strictly following old continuity. So why did people latch onto "soft reboot" as if it were a solemn promise that the old continuity would remain intact? Possibly because they were in denial about the pretty obvious fact that it was going to be transformed or replaced.

    And now that it's harder to be in denial about that, the feeling of being misled is feeding some people's anger (which I think is the second stage of grief, right?)

    You can probably also see some signs of another stage, bargaining--like, "I could be OK with the new birth story if not for the Amazon sex pirates." But it's actually rational in this case--moreso than if you're actually dying of an incurable disease, which was more what Kubler Ross was talking about--to try to "bargain" by speaking out as a fan about what you can accept and what you can't. (I consider everyone's preferences valid for them, by the way, and although I disagree with a lot of the criticisms, I don't mean to seem dismissive.)

    Of course, although I'm not in denial about this being a new continuity, I might be in denial about something else. At various times, I've been accused, more or less, of being in denial for thinking a lot of things: that this Wonder Woman might prove powerful enough to defeat a god; that she might be unique in some way among demigods; that we might see her fly; that she might have the same loving and peaceful nature as the original Wonder Woman; that we might see her fight hate with love and change some hearts; that we might find that the Amazons have done some good in the world (like imprison monsters and murderers), despite whatever else they might have done; that she might have learned something positive from her sisters; that she might identify with and be loyal to her mother and not to her father; that we might see her do something to bring her mother and sisters back; that she might gain a female ally; that a female figure, rather than "big bro" Lennox, might have been the mastermind behind the plan in issues 5 and 6; that whatever misdeeds women or goddesses might have committed in this run, the original sins will be shown to be sins of patriarchy (like a father taking a son from his mother's arms to kill him and eliminate competition). So statistically, it seems likely that I must be in denial about something; the pessimists can't be wrong about everything. But all of the above possibilities, if not necessarily proven true, have at least become more probable between issue 9 or 10 and now. I hope I get to find out soon what I'm in denial about, so I can march on towards acceptance.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-06-2012 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #289
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Just speaking for myself, I'm not in denial about the fact that this is a new continuity. It IS a new continuity. I'm not grieving the old continuity, because A. I can still reread the old stories and B. I like the new continuity. Some people are grieving the old continuity, and I respect that, but all I can say is that I don't consider the old continuity dead or dying as long as the old stories are out that to read. For me, grieving the loss of the old continuity would be like grieving that there aren't going to be any new plays by Shakespeare (except, for all I know, there actually could be new stories written in the old continuity at some point in the future.)
    To me [and I suspect some others] this is akin to saying there is no need to feel bad about Firefly, because they made 13 episodes and a movie.

    And for some odd reason, reading the old stories over and over, even the best ones, doesnt have the same impact as reading new stories. Something about knowing what happens next, I think.
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  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    To me [and I suspect some others] this is akin to saying there is no need to feel bad about Firefly, because they made 13 episodes and a movie.
    I'm not saying you're wrong to feel bad. Believe it or not, I know that it's not for me to say, and anyway, you probably can't just decide not to feel bad; we all have to own our feelings. Your feelings are your feelings. But hopefully it's some consolation that there are an awful lot of back issues to read. The previous continuity lasted (with various wrinkles here and there) from 1987 to 2010. Not a bad run. Certainly a lot longer than Firefly.

    I guess I was never really as attached to the stories in the last continuity as I was to the early ones in the first continuity. Maybe that's why this isn't upsetting to me. New Marston Wonder Woman stories stopped being published before I was born, and I'm at peace with that and happy to be able to reread the old ones (and looking forward to eventually reading the ones I haven't read yet.)

    And for some odd reason, reading the old stories over and over, even the best ones, doesnt have the same impact as reading new stories. Something about knowing what happens next, I think.
    What happens after Hamlet? After Pride and Prejudice? After Huckleberry Finn? Tantalzing questions, and some writers have even made up answers (particularly for Pride and Prejudice). But those sequels are really separate stories. At the end of the original works, the answer to "what happens next?" is "The End." Stories end. I can appreciate wanting a better ending,like the one Moore gave pre-crisis Superman, or even the one Marv Wolfman gave Earth 2 Wonder Woman. Maybe DC will eventually publish one. That would be neat. In the meantime, at least Hester ended the Odyssey with Wonder Woman bravely facing the future, knowing that there her essence would endure.

    And now we have new stories about Wonder Woman--that is, Diana of Themyscira, a loving and courageous Amazon princess, who, armed with the lasso of truth and wearing bullet-deflecting bracers, escorted Steve Trevor back to America and became the world's greatest heroes. She is, at her core, Wonder Woman--but is she the same Wonder Woman in every detail? No. You wanted new stories? Here they are. I'm sorry they're not more to your liking; I hope the next author keeps the same continuity (because I like it, and because I think a new reboot in the next few years would be bad for the character's stability) but develops it in way we can both enjoy. (I was going to say "we all," but even I am not THAT optimistic!)
    Last edited by slvn; 12-06-2012 at 02:15 PM.

  6. #291
    Tantu Terrific! Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Off the top of my head; Dick, Roy, Starfire, Wally.
    You know, somehow I had all but forgotten Wally used to be a Titan. So, he has kind of been the most successful Titan in terms of graduating to the big 'leagues'.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    You know, somehow I had all but forgotten Wally used to be a Titan. So, he has kind of been the most successful Titan in terms of graduating to the big 'leagues'.
    Yes, and its a pitty that has all gone boy the board. I really like this character.

    What I never thought about was Batgirl graduating up to Oracle. Again, I was disappoined when they got rid of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    You know, somehow I had all but forgotten Wally used to be a Titan. So, he has kind of been the most successful Titan in terms of graduating to the big 'leagues'.
    I really dislike that word in this context. The idea that you're a not a 'proper' grow-up superhero as long as you are a Titan, as if that team is just some school :S

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Just speaking for myself, I'm not in denial about the fact that this is a new continuity. It IS a new continuity. I'm not grieving the old continuity, because A. I can still reread the old stories and B. I like the new continuity. Some people are grieving the old continuity, and I respect that, but all I can say is that I don't consider the old continuity dead or dying as long as the old stories are out that to read. For me, grieving the loss of the old continuity would be like grieving that there aren't going to be any new plays by Shakespeare (except, for all I know, there actually could be new stories written in the old continuity at some point in the future.)

    And I don't think a new continuity is "disrespectful" as long as it honors the essence of the character and draws inspiration from the old stories in some way--which I have argued that the present story does. (This may seem like more "back-and-forth semantics" to you, but I think it's important to define our terms if we expect to understand each other.)

    But I think you may have put your finger on why some people feel they were misled. Azzarello laughingly said it was going to be a soft reboot, but he also said, more extensively and seriously, that he wasn't interested in strictly following old continuity. So why did people latch onto "soft reboot" as if it were a solemn promise that the old continuity would remain intact? Possibly because they were in denial about the pretty obvious fact that it was going to be transformed or replaced.

    And now that it's harder to be in denial about that, the feeling of being misled is feeding some people's anger (which I think is the second stage of grief, right?)

    You can probably also see some signs of another stage, bargaining--like, "I could be OK with the new birth story if not for the Amazon sex pirates." But it's actually rational in this case--moreso than if you're actually dying of an incurable disease, which was more what Kubler Ross was talking about--to try to "bargain" by speaking out as a fan about what you can accept and what you can't. (I consider everyone's preferences valid for them, by the way, and although I disagree with a lot of the criticisms, I don't mean to seem dismissive.)

    Of course, although I'm not in denial about this being a new continuity, I might be in denial about something else. At various times, I've been accused, more or less, of being in denial for thinking a lot of things: that this Wonder Woman might prove powerful enough to defeat a god; that she might be unique in some way among demigods; that we might see her fly; that she might have the same loving and peaceful nature as the original Wonder Woman; that we might see her fight hate with love and change some hearts; that we might find that the Amazons have done some good in the world (like imprison monsters and murderers), despite whatever else they might have done; that she might have learned something positive from her sisters; that she might identify with and be loyal to her mother and not to her father; that we might see her do something to bring her mother and sisters back; that she might gain a female ally; that a female figure, rather than "big bro" Lennox, might have been the mastermind behind the plan in issues 5 and 6; that whatever misdeeds women or goddesses might have committed in this run, the original sins will be shown to be sins of patriarchy (like a father taking a son from his mother's arms to kill him and eliminate competition). So statistically, it seems likely that I must be in denial about something; the pessimists can't be wrong about everything. But all of the above possibilities, if not necessarily proven true, have at least become more probable between issue 9 or 10 and now. I hope I get to find out soon what I'm in denial about, so I can march on towards acceptance.
    SLVN, before I comment on anything else I have a question for you. When did you start reading Wonder Woman regularly? (purchasing/borrowing back-issues not included). Me, in the 70's around issue 224 pre-Coie, for example.

    Ok. I don't think anyone is in denial of anything here. I think that is an unfortunate choice of words. It all boils down to what one likes and what one chooses to take-away from a birds-eye point of view.

    I think it IS a new continuity. In fact, I "choose" to view this Diana as Wonder Woman, but not the same Wonder Woman that we last saw in issue 614 of Odyssey. This version of WW feels like an Elseworld Wonder Woman to me regardless of how we are supposed to take it. A lot of these discussions are being approached from two different angles in the same exchange. Some are looking at the trees while others are looking at the forest.

    Oh, btw, you're partly right about Denial being a stage of grieving. Grieving (a loved one's loss) has 4 stages, but different people can go through the different stages in different order. Denial isn't the 2nd stage of it for everyone. For me (when I underwent a traumatic loss of a loved one) Anger was the 2nd.

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  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    SLVN, before I comment on anything else I have a question for you. When did you start reading Wonder Woman regularly? (purchasing/borrowing back-issues not included). Me, in the 70's around issue 224 pre-Coie, for example.
    Sometime in the late seventies also, though even though you said back issues not included I have to say, I started with Marston (someone had given me a giant-sized collection of his early issues), and that was the memorable version for me. And I wasn't buying the new issues as regularly as I would have liked, because I couldn't always find them in the candy stores. I could find Justice League more regularly, and Wonder Woman was my favorite character there. Then later I lost interest in comics for stretches of time, including the time during which COIE occurred. But like I said, I bonded much more with the Marston version than with later versions, which probably explains why another change in continuity is less traumatic for me than for some of the other older fans.

    Ok. I don't think anyone is in denial of anything here. I think that is an unfortunate choice of words. It all boils down to what one likes and what one chooses to take-away from a birds-eye point of view.
    It was tangentman's choice of words, but I don't mind it. Denial is normal.

    I think it IS a new continuity.
    Well, yeah, me too, as I said.

    In fact, I "choose" to view this Diana as Wonder Woman, but not the same Wonder Woman that we last saw in issue 614 of Odyssey.
    I agree with that--she's clearly a different version of the character--but what's imporantt to me is that I think this version catches the essence of the character. To me, though, "Elseworlds" means "outisde the main contiuity currently in force," and this WOnder WOman is inside that continuity, the New 52 continuity.

    Oh, btw, you're partly right about Denial being a stage of grieving. Grieving (a loved one's loss) has 4 stages, but different people can go through the different stages in different order. Denial isn't the 2nd stage of it for everyone. For me (when I underwent a traumatic loss of a loved one) Anger was the 2nd.
    I completely agree with you--I was just talking about the stages that Kubler-Ross describes, since tangentman brought them up. She has them in a certain order, though I'm pretty sure she must acknowledge somewhere that not everyone experiences them in that order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Sometime in the late seventies also, though even though you said back issues not included I have to say, I started with Marston (someone had given me a giant-sized collection of his early issues), and that was the memorable version for me. And I wasn't buying the new issues as regularly as I would have liked, because I couldn't always find them in the candy stores. I could find Justice League more regularly, and Wonder Woman was my favorite character there. Then later I lost interest in comics for stretches of time, including the time during which COIE occurred. But like I said, I bonded much more with the Marston version than with later versions, which probably explains why another change in continuity is less traumatic for me than for some of the other older fans.



    It was tangentman's choice of words, but I don't mind it. Denial is normal.



    Well, yeah, me too, as I said.



    I agree with that--she's clearly a different version of the character--but what's imporantt to me is that I think this version catches the essence of the character. To me, though, "Elseworlds" means "outisde the main contiuity currently in force," and this WOnder WOman is inside that continuity, the New 52 continuity.



    I completely agree with you--I was just talking about the stages that Kubler-Ross describes, since tangentman brought them up. She has them in a certain order, though I'm pretty sure she must acknowledge somewhere that not everyone experiences them in that order.
    Maybe "Elseworlds" was the wrong thing to say. I feel that this WW is (of course) within nu52 continuity, what I meant to express is that she feels like from another Earth within the DCU. To a certain extent this applies to almost everyone but in Wonder Woman's case it seems to be accentuated due to all the changes that have a lot of people rabid.

    There is a reason I asked about how long you've been reading WW, and you confirmed what I was trying to get at when you mentioned that it's a bit less traumatic for you possibly because you lost touch with comics for a while. That happened to me too, but during the late 90's to mid 2000's. I was subscribed via mail to WW and Justice League though, but due to certain things going on in my life during that time they were mostly just put aside to read later (and sometimes, some unread). It wasn't until March of 2011 that I truly became involved again.

    BTW.. The Justice League Wonder Woman (pre-crisis) was often a little bit more 'fresh' to look at/read than that of her own comic. U didn't miss much there! if any went uncollected.

  13. #298
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I really dislike that word in this context. The idea that you're a not a 'proper' grow-up superhero as long as you are a Titan, as if that team is just some school :S
    Well, they are Teen Titans...
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  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    Well, they are Teen Titans...
    Who grew up to be Titans.

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    Scary lady Chris Lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Reading through several pages of back-and-forth semantics and dismissal of valid critiques, I wonder if we could apply Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' Stages to this forum? Particularly her thoughts on Denial!
    To be honest, I haven't been following the DCnu much, so all I know is second-hand accounts. But from what I hear, Donna Troy was 'benched' because DC editorial branded her a 'copy' regardless of her history. Choosing to err on the side of underestimating their new readers' understanding of 'character families' (and I think new readers would understand Donna Troy, Wally West, and the rest easily enough ... more than those making these decisions give them credit for) sadly has its consequences.

    But unless what I've heard is wrong, the main problem is the lack of closure. There's no final story for any of these characters where they either heroically sacrifice themselves or just ride off into the sunset. There's not even a 'meta' series of panels like the Kanigher comic quoted where an editor appears personally to say 'No matter what happens, I'll always love you ... but I'm retiring you as of now'. They just stopped writing about these characters without giving any sort of ending, and then started telling stories about a different reality where those characters ... at least as we know them ... don't exist.

    So of course, people are going to be in denial. As much as they'd like to see new stories about their favorite characters in something more official than fan fiction, it doesn't seem like that's going to happen. It's more likely to happen than Shakespeare coming back from the dead and writing new plays (plays that would be harshly scrutinized and endlessly compared to the classics, but I'm digressing), but it looks like one shouldn't bet a large amount of money on it.

    For now, anyway, all the 'officially-sanctioned' stories about these characters have already been written. And people will have to re-read them to see those characters again. As Grant Morrison says in his Animal Man run, fictional characters' lives are relived every time someone reads them. They outlive their creators. They outlive their gods.
    Last edited by Chris Lang; 12-08-2012 at 08:17 AM.

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