Wonder Woman 14 (spoilers)

[fanboiii]

Imaginary stories are serious business. No stories have been "undone". They still exist on paper where they were left off. The difference is they aren't being added onto.

Pretty sure most of these criticisms were answered before. Many of them are creative choices that you either buy into or not. Why is Hippolyta blonde? Because they felt like it. They aren't literally creating a new reality down to the atom. It's all for entertainment. If you're looking for reasons behind everything, you're missing the point of comics.

[brettc1]

If you're thinking about the reasons why things happen, you're getting the point of stories.

[slvn]

If you're thinking about the reasons why things happen, you're getting the point of stories.

Well, there's the story on the page, and there's the story behind the story. If you ask "why is Hippolyta blonde," I doubt you're ever going to have an answer in the story on the page. I guess she's blonde for the same reason anyone else would be blonde; she had a blonde parent or ancestor, and her hair just grew that way. But the question is really about the story behind the story, right? Were they recalling the character's Silver Age look, or making it easier for artists to visually differentiate Diana from her mother, or demonstrating that a Diana with two parents is no longer like a "clone" of her mother (if she ever was), or what? That's fair and interesting speculation, but I think fanboii is suggesting that we can enjoy the story on the page without having all the answers about the story behind the story. And I would agree with that.

Even within the story on the page, while I think it's good for us to as a lot of questions, like an eight-year old would (as you said), it would be bad for the book to answer them all. An eight year old might ask what Wonder Woman's poops smell like, bit I'm not too interested in having the book answer that question.

[brettc1]

Even within the story on the page, while I think it's good for us to as a lot of questions, like an eight-year old would (as you said), it would be bad for the book to answer them all. An eight year old might ask what Wonder Woman's poops smell like, bit I'm not too interested in having the book answer that question.

Actually Gwen and I had this discussion during her toilet training, which led to this bit of literature regarding Diana's own childhood...

The Amazons meanwhile engaged in debate
Regarding their Princess's toileting state.
They sought for ideas to make her less tearful
And set aside thoughts that the potty was fearful.

"Perhaps," Paula said, "the Lansinarian device,
might be used to construct her a seat she found nice."
But Artemis replied, with a look that was withering,
"An invisible toilet? That is not worth considering!"

[Gaelforce]

I'd still like it; as Alan Moore said, they're all imaginary stories, whether in continuity or not, so it's not that big a difference. But I do kind of enjoy that she is in some sense the same character we see in Batwoman ("only daughter of Hippolyta and Zeus"), so that when we learn something about there about the Amazons or the gods, it might be part of the background of Azzarello's Wonder Woman. And even the Wonder Woman in JL, different as that interpretation is from Azzarello's in some ways, is the daughter of stone Hippolyta, so I can imagine that her recent losses in Azzarello's book are part of the reason she worries so much about being a threat to her love ones. And I like thinking that something like the story with Orion could have effects on the larger universe. Moreover, I doubt that DC would have done a 17+ issue Wonder Woman Elseworld.



Maybe no one told him to do it, but he says that if he hadn't done it, DC was going to publish a version that was more distant from the core of Wonder Woman's character. So it seems likely that there was going to be hard boot whether he did it or not. At least this way we get a rebooted Wonder Woman who loves everyone.

And once there's a hard boot, the answer to most of your questions becomes "because they're part of the best story he could come up with." And the best thing he can do for the stability and future of the character is to tell the best stories he can about her, without changing her core. He shouldn't have to have a specific justification for every detail, in my opinion.

As for blonde Hippolyta, though, she is not new--just a return to the Silver Age. And I kind of liked seeing her again; it had been a long time. And as for there being other kids, --particularly in the tournament--it seemed to me like Diana had peers (like Mala) in Marston's comics, even though it wasn't clear how that could be. (I understand that in a newspaper strop Marston showed that other Amazons besides Hippolyta would also pray and get clay status turned into daughters.)



That's OK--to each their own. But I don't buy that fictions can be destroyed or undone, unless you can destroy all the copies. And back issues of Wonder Woman still exist.

Okay, try these on for size ;)

nu52, there's only one Superman book (no Action Comics):

Clark wakes up in his Vancouver apartment when Joe teleports into his room. Joe was attacked at his ranch by robots but an alien swooped in to save him and sent him to find Clark who then uses the teleporter to go back to the ranch and save the alien who was wounded by robots. Joe and Clark take the alien to the Kent farm which Clark left years ago. Ma and Pa Kent are right wing racists and the rest of the community gave Clark a hard time growing up because he didn't have a problem with people of color. At the Kent farm, he finds out that he wasn't really rocketed from Krypton as an infant to save him from the destruction of his homeworld - that was just a story he was told to protect him. He finds out from his ex-girlfriend Sharon that his Kryptonian birth-mother had an affair with a Daxamite (we'll call him Ze-us ;) ), and the Daxamites are xenophobic and hate race-traitors and half-breeds, especially Ze-us's wife, Herr-ra, so Lara-El hides him away on Earth to protect him from his Daxamite relatives. Turns out Joe, btw, is half-Daxamite is well which is why Herr-ra sent robots to kill him. Clark and Joe then go on a 14 month jaunt through space battling the Daxamites, with a good deal of the book focusing on establishing the Daxamite heirarchy and intrigues. Herr-ra goes to the Kent ranch and turns the Kents into broken cyborgs. Along the way, a Daxamite half-brother who had been spying on Clark and the Kents reveal that not only are Jonathan and Martha racists, but they're card carrying KKK members who lynched a few people back in the day.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Clark and Lois, a young black reporter who had been doing a story in Smallville and has something to do with why Clark left Smallville, but the experienced big-city woman was moving too fast for the naive country boy who loved her but wanted to protect her, so they broke up. Supergirl doesn't exist, and Superboy stole some alien technology from STAR labs to give himself powers and has no connection to Superman at all.

Sooooo...Lana Lang is now a blonde named Sharon, there's no mention of Metropolis, Perry White or Jimmy Olson, Lois never appears in his own book, the Kents are racist murderers, we have no clue why he's in Vancouver or what he's done since leaving the farm, let alone how he makes a living.

Or...

One Bat-book only...

Bruce wakes up in his Mexico City apartment when Vinny climbs through the window. Vinny has been attacked by gang-bangers, but a mafia hit man showed up to protect him and sent him to find Bruce, who follows Vinny back to his place to rescue the hitman who was wounded by the gang bangers. Bruce and Vinny take the hitman back to Wayne Manor where Alfred reveals that his parents weren't gunned down by a random mugger, but Joe Chill was actually a hit man from a rival mafia family - the Wayne's were the head of the top mob in Gotham and the Wayne fortune was made off of the very criminals that Bruce now fights as Batman. Vinny is a long lost cousin of Bruce and the rival mafia family is out to eliminate all of the Wayne relatives, including Bruce's ex-girlfriend Sheila.

Vinny and Bruce then embark on a series of adventures in Europe to track down this rival family, and a good deal of the book is spent fleshing out this family and their intrigues. Along the way, Bruce discovers that his father started off as a hit man and has killed over two dozen people.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Bruce and Selina breaking up, but she never appears in Batman's book. Also, over in another book, Batgirl turns out to be someone from Los Angeles who borrowed a Batman mask to stop a crime in progress and has absolutely nothing to do with Batman. There is no Robin.

So...no Gotham, no Commissioner Gordon, no Robin, and the Waynes were murderous mafia members. Vicki Vale is now a red head named Sheila and Selina only shows up in JL now and then.

There is absolutely no way writers or editors at DC would disrespect the past history of these characters like this just for a 'new take' or a 'fresh start.' Elseworld's maybe, but as an ongoing?

It'll never happen, but it's okay to do this to Wonder Woman's history and her past supporting cast. No Donna, Cassie has nothing to do with Diana at all, the formerly peace-loving Amazons who raised her are now murderers and her mother an adulteress, there's no connection from leaving home and where they are now, there's no recognizable supporting cast except for one or two key figures, other people have vanished or have had their names changed (Aleka), etc.

I know there are holes in the two stories I just put forward, but that's not the point (these are just off the top of my head) - the point is you will never see the beloved family members of Superman and Batman turned into adulterers and killers, or their decade-long-existing sidekicks completely removed from continuity or changed to have no connection to them at all.

[Rob_Olivera]

Okay, try these on for size ;)

nu52, there's only one Superman book (no Action Comics):

Clark wakes up in his Vancouver apartment when Joe teleports into his room. Joe was attacked at his ranch by robots but an alien swooped in to save him and sent him to find Clark who then uses the teleporter to go back to the ranch and save the alien who was wounded by robots. Joe and Clark take the alien to the Kent farm which Clark left years ago. Ma and Pa Kent are right wing racists and the rest of the community gave Clark a hard time growing up because he didn't have a problem with people of color. At the Kent farm, he finds out that he wasn't really rocketed from Krypton as an infant to save him from the destruction of his homeworld - that was just a story he was told to protect him. He finds out from his ex-girlfriend Sharon that his Kryptonian birth-mother had an affair with a Daxamite (we'll call him Ze-us ;) ), and the Daxamites are xenophobic and hate race-traitors and half-breeds, especially Ze-us's wife, Herr-ra, so Lara-El hides him away on Earth to protect him from his Daxamite relatives. Turns out Joe, btw, is half-Daxamite is well which is why Herr-ra sent robots to kill him. Clark and Joe then go on a 14 month jaunt through space battling the Daxamites, with a good deal of the book focusing on establishing the Daxamite heirarchy and intrigues. Herr-ra goes to the Kent ranch and turns the Kents into broken cyborgs. Along the way, a Daxamite half-brother who had been spying on Clark and the Kents reveal that not only are Jonathan and Martha racists, but they're card carrying KKK members who lynched a few people back in the day.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Clark and Lois, a young black reporter who had been doing a story in Smallville and has something to do with why Clark left Smallville, but the experienced big-city woman was moving too fast for the naive country boy who loved her but wanted to protect her, so they broke up. Supergirl doesn't exist, and Superboy stole some alien technology from STAR labs to give himself powers and has no connection to Superman at all.

Sooooo...Lana Lang is now a blonde named Sharon, there's no mention of Metropolis, Perry White or Jimmy Olson, Lois never appears in his own book, the Kents are racist murderers, we have no clue why he's in Vancouver or what he's done since leaving the farm, let alone how he makes a living.

Or...

One Bat-book only...

Bruce wakes up in his Mexico City apartment when Vinny climbs through the window. Vinny has been attacked by gang-bangers, but a mafia hit man showed up to protect him and sent him to find Bruce, who follows Vinny back to his place to rescue the hitman who was wounded by the gang bangers. Bruce and Vinny take the hitman back to Wayne Manor where Alfred reveals that his parents weren't gunned down by a random mugger, but Joe Chill was actually a hit man from a rival mafia family - the Wayne's were the head of the top mob in Gotham and the Wayne fortune was made off of the very criminals that Bruce now fights as Batman. Vinny is a long lost cousin of Bruce and the rival mafia family is out to eliminate all of the Wayne relatives, including Bruce's ex-girlfriend Sheila.

Vinny and Bruce then embark on a series of adventures in Europe to track down this rival family, and a good deal of the book is spent fleshing out this family and their intrigues. Along the way, Bruce discovers that his father started off as a hit man and has killed over two dozen people.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Bruce and Selina breaking up, but she never appears in Batman's book. Also, over in another book, Batgirl turns out to be someone from Los Angeles who borrowed a Batman mask to stop a crime in progress and has absolutely nothing to do with Batman. There is no Robin.

So...no Gotham, no Commissioner Gordon, no Robin, and the Waynes were murderous mafia members. Vicki Vale is now a red head named Sheila and Selina only shows up in JL now and then.

There is absolutely no way writers or editors at DC would disrespect the past history of these characters like this just for a 'new take' or a 'fresh start.' Elseworld's maybe, but as an ongoing?

It'll never happen, but it's okay to do this to Wonder Woman's history and her past supporting cast. No Donna, Cassie has nothing to do with Diana at all, the formerly peace-loving Amazons who raised her are now murderers and her mother an adulteress, there's no connection from leaving home and where they are now, there's no recognizable supporting cast except for one or two key figures, other people have vanished or have had their names changed (Aleka), etc.

I know there are holes in the two stories I just put forward, but that's not the point (these are just off the top of my head) - the point is you will never see the beloved family members of Superman and Batman turned into adulterers and killers, or their decade-long-existing sidekicks completely removed from continuity or changed to have no connection to them at all.

Take my money!!!

Good analogies... although won't do any good :/

[Auguste Dupin]

Okay, try these on for size ;)

nu52, there's only one Superman book (no Action Comics):

Clark wakes up in his Vancouver apartment when Joe teleports into his room. Joe was attacked at his ranch by robots but an alien swooped in to save him and sent him to find Clark who then uses the teleporter to go back to the ranch and save the alien who was wounded by robots. Joe and Clark take the alien to the Kent farm which Clark left years ago. Ma and Pa Kent are right wing racists and the rest of the community gave Clark a hard time growing up because he didn't have a problem with people of color. At the Kent farm, he finds out that he wasn't really rocketed from Krypton as an infant to save him from the destruction of his homeworld - that was just a story he was told to protect him. He finds out from his ex-girlfriend Sharon that his Kryptonian birth-mother had an affair with a Daxamite (we'll call him Ze-us ;) ), and the Daxamites are xenophobic and hate race-traitors and half-breeds, especially Ze-us's wife, Herr-ra, so Lara-El hides him away on Earth to protect him from his Daxamite relatives. Turns out Joe, btw, is half-Daxamite is well which is why Herr-ra sent robots to kill him. Clark and Joe then go on a 14 month jaunt through space battling the Daxamites, with a good deal of the book focusing on establishing the Daxamite heirarchy and intrigues. Herr-ra goes to the Kent ranch and turns the Kents into broken cyborgs. Along the way, a Daxamite half-brother who had been spying on Clark and the Kents reveal that not only are Jonathan and Martha racists, but they're card carrying KKK members who lynched a few people back in the day.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Clark and Lois, a young black reporter who had been doing a story in Smallville and has something to do with why Clark left Smallville, but the experienced big-city woman was moving too fast for the naive country boy who loved her but wanted to protect her, so they broke up. Supergirl doesn't exist, and Superboy stole some alien technology from STAR labs to give himself powers and has no connection to Superman at all.

Sooooo...Lana Lang is now a blonde named Sharon, there's no mention of Metropolis, Perry White or Jimmy Olson, Lois never appears in his own book, the Kents are racist murderers, we have no clue why he's in Vancouver or what he's done since leaving the farm, let alone how he makes a living.

Or...

One Bat-book only...

Bruce wakes up in his Mexico City apartment when Vinny climbs through the window. Vinny has been attacked by gang-bangers, but a mafia hit man showed up to protect him and sent him to find Bruce, who follows Vinny back to his place to rescue the hitman who was wounded by the gang bangers. Bruce and Vinny take the hitman back to Wayne Manor where Alfred reveals that his parents weren't gunned down by a random mugger, but Joe Chill was actually a hit man from a rival mafia family - the Wayne's were the head of the top mob in Gotham and the Wayne fortune was made off of the very criminals that Bruce now fights as Batman. Vinny is a long lost cousin of Bruce and the rival mafia family is out to eliminate all of the Wayne relatives, including Bruce's ex-girlfriend Sheila.

Vinny and Bruce then embark on a series of adventures in Europe to track down this rival family, and a good deal of the book is spent fleshing out this family and their intrigues. Along the way, Bruce discovers that his father started off as a hit man and has killed over two dozen people.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Bruce and Selina breaking up, but she never appears in Batman's book. Also, over in another book, Batgirl turns out to be someone from Los Angeles who borrowed a Batman mask to stop a crime in progress and has absolutely nothing to do with Batman. There is no Robin.

So...no Gotham, no Commissioner Gordon, no Robin, and the Waynes were murderous mafia members. Vicki Vale is now a red head named Sheila and Selina only shows up in JL now and then.

There is absolutely no way writers or editors at DC would disrespect the past history of these characters like this just for a 'new take' or a 'fresh start.' Elseworld's maybe, but as an ongoing?

It'll never happen, but it's okay to do this to Wonder Woman's history and her past supporting cast. No Donna, Cassie has nothing to do with Diana at all, the formerly peace-loving Amazons who raised her are now murderers and her mother an adulteress, there's no connection from leaving home and where they are now, there's no recognizable supporting cast except for one or two key figures, other people have vanished or have had their names changed (Aleka), etc.

I know there are holes in the two stories I just put forward, but that's not the point (these are just off the top of my head) - the point is you will never see the beloved family members of Superman and Batman turned into adulterers and killers, or their decade-long-existing sidekicks completely removed from continuity or changed to have no connection to them at all.

Simple: Superman and Batman's families are much more well known to the main audience than anything WW related. That's why they are harder to get rid of. They appeared in movies, in Tv shows, people know them. Who knows about Artemis? Phillipis? Wonder Girl (Teen Titan fans I guess). When was the last time she appeared on TV? The Carter show where Amazons only appeared on the first episode?
Money is the name of the game, and if her only money making thing is appearing on Halloween costumes, towels, and Justice League shows where none of her cast is present, that makes her iconic, not the cast.
Besides, I'm sorry, but Marston is asking for it when he calls his all female society the Amazons, aka, that savage tribe from the Greek myths with no basis on reality as far as we know and were in barbaric killers.
If Batman's name was Bruce Capone, was the descendant of Al Capone who in this continuity would have been an honest businessman wrongly persecuted by the police of Chicago because he was Italian, would it be really surprising to have authors playing with the fact Al Capone actually was a mobster? I don't think so.

[slvn]

Okay, try these on for size ;)

nu52, there's only one Superman book (no Action Comics):

Clark wakes up in his Vancouver apartment when Joe teleports into his room. .... Along the way, a Daxamite half-brother who had been spying on Clark and the Kents reveal that not only are Jonathan and Martha racists, but they're card carrying KKK members who lynched a few people back in the day.

Sounds a little derivative. :) But I'd try it and see if it was interesting and if it was true to Superman as a orphaned alien "sun god" and symbol of hope. In reality, I haven't actually been reading Superman, though I have been reading Action--and I'd be more likely to read Superman if they were doing something fresh with the character. (I may start picking up Lobdell's run.)

One Bat-book only...

Bruce wakes up in his Mexico City apartment ....

So...no Gotham, no Commissioner Gordon, no Robin, and the Waynes were murderous mafia members. Vicki Vale is now a red head named Sheila and Selina only shows up in JL now and then.

I'd argue that Gotham and Robin and are more essential to the Batman myth than Boston or Washington (or whatever city) or Wonder Girl is to the Wonder Woman myth. But this sounds strange enough that I would give it a try--it would probably be either extraordinary or a train wreck. I haven't been keeping up with any of the Bat-books lately, but a really bold approach could lure me in, if Batman were still a brilliant "Dark Knight" with motives similar to the ones he has now. I'd read a Batman comic where (as in the Flashpoint series) Batman is Thomas Wayne and his wife is the Joker, and I'd prefer it to be set in the main continuity so that I can see the Waynes interact with the heroes in the other books. It wouldn't last forever, but I personally wouldn't object to having it be part of the DC status quo for a while. (And no, this isn't because I'm an Azzarello freak--his Batman wasn't even my favorite of the Flashpoint books. But it was a pretty good, and as the main DCU version, it would be bold enough to be worth checking out, from my perspective.)

There is absolutely no way writers or editors at DC would disrespect the past history of these characters like this just for a 'new take' or a 'fresh start.' Elseworld's maybe, but as an ongoing?

Putting specifics of your plot aside for a moment, I'll say I don't think big changes to supporting casts and backgrounds are necessarily disrespectful. But I agree that DC would be more reluctant to make big changes to the Batman and Superman books, because of the sales of those books and the movies and so on. (Of course, if the movie franchises crash and burn and the books' sales crash for a long enough time, look out for Thomas Wayne and Project Superman in comics stores near you.) Though I wish that all editorial decisions were made for creative decisions regardless of sales, such is not the case. But I think that the relative commercial success of Batman and Superman work to their creative detriment sometimes; it's hard for the creators to do something really bold with the cash cows. If the CW's "Amazon" turns out to be a smash hit and there's a WW second book and both books are selling at 60k+ and there's a big movie franchise, then I think you'll see DC become more conservative (and maybe too conservative) about protecting whatever the Wonder Woman status quo is at that time.

[brettc1]

Simple: Superman and Batman's families are much more well known to the main audience than anything WW related. That's why they are harder to get rid of. They appeared in movies, in Tv shows, people know them. Who knows about Artemis? Phillipis? Wonder Girl (Teen Titan fans I guess). When was the last time she appeared on TV? The Carter show where Amazons only appeared on the first episode?

Wonder Girl is a regular character on Young Justice.

The Amazons appeared in recurring episodes of Justice League Unlimited and the Wonder Woman animated movie. In that, they are no different to the supporting characters of Green Lantern.

Also, in the Carter show the Amazons appeared at least four times - the pilot, the second season pilot, and the doublt episode The Feminum Mystique [one of the best adventures IMO].

Artemis appeared in the Secret Six crossover and had her own miniseries. Hippolyta appeared mulitple times in Teen Titans back in the Perez/Wolfman era, which I am sure many fans remember.

Donna Troy has appeared in Justice League comics, Darkstars, and was a star of the Perez/Wolfman Titans comic. Plenty of folks know her well enough to cos-play her at conventions.

[brettc1]

I agree with everything Gael says below.

Okay, try these on for size ;)

nu52, there's only one Superman book (no Action Comics):

Clark wakes up in his Vancouver apartment when Joe teleports into his room. Joe was attacked at his ranch by robots but an alien swooped in to save him and sent him to find Clark who then uses the teleporter to go back to the ranch and save the alien who was wounded by robots. Joe and Clark take the alien to the Kent farm which Clark left years ago. Ma and Pa Kent are right wing racists and the rest of the community gave Clark a hard time growing up because he didn't have a problem with people of color. At the Kent farm, he finds out that he wasn't really rocketed from Krypton as an infant to save him from the destruction of his homeworld - that was just a story he was told to protect him. He finds out from his ex-girlfriend Sharon that his Kryptonian birth-mother had an affair with a Daxamite (we'll call him Ze-us ;) ), and the Daxamites are xenophobic and hate race-traitors and half-breeds, especially Ze-us's wife, Herr-ra, so Lara-El hides him away on Earth to protect him from his Daxamite relatives. Turns out Joe, btw, is half-Daxamite is well which is why Herr-ra sent robots to kill him. Clark and Joe then go on a 14 month jaunt through space battling the Daxamites, with a good deal of the book focusing on establishing the Daxamite heirarchy and intrigues. Herr-ra goes to the Kent ranch and turns the Kents into broken cyborgs. Along the way, a Daxamite half-brother who had been spying on Clark and the Kents reveal that not only are Jonathan and Martha racists, but they're card carrying KKK members who lynched a few people back in the day.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Clark and Lois, a young black reporter who had been doing a story in Smallville and has something to do with why Clark left Smallville, but the experienced big-city woman was moving too fast for the naive country boy who loved her but wanted to protect her, so they broke up. Supergirl doesn't exist, and Superboy stole some alien technology from STAR labs to give himself powers and has no connection to Superman at all.

Sooooo...Lana Lang is now a blonde named Sharon, there's no mention of Metropolis, Perry White or Jimmy Olson, Lois never appears in his own book, the Kents are racist murderers, we have no clue why he's in Vancouver or what he's done since leaving the farm, let alone how he makes a living.

Or...

One Bat-book only...

Bruce wakes up in his Mexico City apartment when Vinny climbs through the window. Vinny has been attacked by gang-bangers, but a mafia hit man showed up to protect him and sent him to find Bruce, who follows Vinny back to his place to rescue the hitman who was wounded by the gang bangers. Bruce and Vinny take the hitman back to Wayne Manor where Alfred reveals that his parents weren't gunned down by a random mugger, but Joe Chill was actually a hit man from a rival mafia family - the Wayne's were the head of the top mob in Gotham and the Wayne fortune was made off of the very criminals that Bruce now fights as Batman. Vinny is a long lost cousin of Bruce and the rival mafia family is out to eliminate all of the Wayne relatives, including Bruce's ex-girlfriend Sheila.

Vinny and Bruce then embark on a series of adventures in Europe to track down this rival family, and a good deal of the book is spent fleshing out this family and their intrigues. Along the way, Bruce discovers that his father started off as a hit man and has killed over two dozen people.

Meanwhile, over in JLA, we get a flashback of Bruce and Selina breaking up, but she never appears in Batman's book. Also, over in another book, Batgirl turns out to be someone from Los Angeles who borrowed a Batman mask to stop a crime in progress and has absolutely nothing to do with Batman. There is no Robin.

So...no Gotham, no Commissioner Gordon, no Robin, and the Waynes were murderous mafia members. Vicki Vale is now a red head named Sheila and Selina only shows up in JL now and then.

There is absolutely no way writers or editors at DC would disrespect the past history of these characters like this just for a 'new take' or a 'fresh start.' Elseworld's maybe, but as an ongoing?

It'll never happen, but it's okay to do this to Wonder Woman's history and her past supporting cast. No Donna, Cassie has nothing to do with Diana at all, the formerly peace-loving Amazons who raised her are now murderers and her mother an adulteress, there's no connection from leaving home and where they are now, there's no recognizable supporting cast except for one or two key figures, other people have vanished or have had their names changed (Aleka), etc.

I know there are holes in the two stories I just put forward, but that's not the point (these are just off the top of my head) - the point is you will never see the beloved family members of Superman and Batman turned into adulterers and killers, or their decade-long-existing sidekicks completely removed from continuity or changed to have no connection to them at all.

[Auguste Dupin]

Wonder Girl is a regular character on Young Justice.

The Amazons appeared in recurring episodes of Justice League Unlimited and the Wonder Woman animated movie. In that, they are no different to the supporting characters of Green Lantern.

Also, in the Carter show the Amazons appeared at least four times - the pilot, the second season pilot, and the doublt episode The Feminum Mystique [one of the best adventures IMO].

Artemis appeared in the Secret Six crossover and had her own miniseries. Hippolyta appeared mulitple times in Teen Titans back in the Perez/Wolfman era, which I am sure many fans remember.

Donna Troy has appeared in Justice League comics, Darkstars, and was a star of the Perez/Wolfman Titans comic. Plenty of folks know her well enough to cos-play her at conventions.

Because you think people cosplaying at conventions are the main audience? You think Artemis is a popular character because she had one mini series (seriously, I'm pretty sure Ambush Bug had a mini series, that doesn't make him popular)? That the Amazons matter to people out there because they appeared 8 times in 40 years on TV?
I mean, you want to compare that to the 4 seasons of Lois and Clark where Lois appeared on every single episode? The 10 seasons of Smallville promoting characters like the Kent or Lana? The half a dozen cartoons since 1989 which featured Alfred, Robin, Batgirl?
With that kind of arguing, I could pretend Guy Gardner is a popular character to the main audience. I mean, he appearedon at least 6 episodes of Brave and the Bold, and like twice on Green Lantern TAS. He even co starred the Green Lantern Corps book. That's pure marketting power, mah good fella.
.....Yes, but no.

[Gaelforce]

Because you think people cosplaying at conventions are the main audience? You think Artemis is a popular character because she had one mini series (seriously, I'm pretty sure Ambush Bug had a mini series, that doesn't make him popular)? That the Amazons matter to people out there because they appeared 8 times in 40 years on TV?
I mean, you want to compare that to the 4 seasons of Lois and Clark where Lois appeared on every single episode? The 10 seasons of Smallville promoting characters like the Kent or Lana? The half a dozen cartoons since 1989 which featured Alfred, Robin, Batgirl?
With that kind of arguing, I could pretend Guy Gardner is a popular character to the main audience. I mean, he appearedon at least 6 episodes of Brave and the Bold, and like twice on Green Lantern TAS. He even co starred the Green Lantern Corps book. That's pure marketting power, mah good fella.
.....Yes, but no.

You do know that the main audience for comic books isn't the people who watch the TV shows and movies?

Comic book audiences are a fraction of the audiences for things like Arrow, Smallville, Lois and Clark, etc. They aren't the target audience for comic books.

Comic book readers are the target audience for comic book companies, and the comic book audience is pretty familiar with Hippolyta, the Amazons, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Steve Trevor, etc.

[Auguste Dupin]

You do know that the main audience for comic books isn't the people who watch the TV shows and movies?

Comic book audiences are a fraction of the audiences for things like Arrow, Smallville, Lois and Clark, etc. They aren't the target audience for comic books.

Comic book readers are the target audience for comic book companies, and the comic book audience is pretty familiar with Hippolyta, the Amazons, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Steve Trevor, etc.

Except that the sum of the people who care about them last year about these people managed to put the book on the 64th place or something. On a dying industry where 100 000 readers is a huge success.
I'm sorry, but when you have numbers like that and that you don't have any kind of recognition amongst a more casual and profitable audience, you and your cast are pretty much expendable.
If Batman was selling 64th and nobody outside of comic books knew about his supporting cast, you can bet they wouldn't be quite as scared to kill them off, or to put them out of the continuity, or to rewrite them as serial killers. Tough luck, Batman is one of the best selling characters, had like 6 successful tv shows and 3 incredibly profitable movies. Wonder Woman has a harder time putting a TV show together than Green Arrow.

[brettc1]

Except that the sum of the people who care about them last year about these people managed to put the book on the 64th place or something. On a dying industry where 100 000 readers is a huge success.
I'm sorry, but when you have numbers like that and that you don't have any kind of recognition amongst a more casual and profitable audience, you and your cast are pretty much expendable.
If Batman was selling 64th and nobody outside of comic books knew about his supporting cast, you can bet they wouldn't be quite as scared to kill them off, or to put them out of the continuity, or to rewrite them as serial killers. Tough luck, Batman is one of the best selling characters, had like 6 successful tv shows and 3 incredibly profitable movies. Wonder Woman has a harder time putting a TV show together than Green Arrow.

Green Arrow does have the advantage of having been in Smallville for five years. Not the same character, but people get the idea.

But its at least refreshing to hear it said openly that the supporting charcters for Wonder Woman's book got trashed for money.

Not my money, of course.

[slvn]

Actually Gwen and I had this discussion during her toilet training, which led to this bit of literature regarding Diana's own childhood...

The Amazons meanwhile engaged in debate
Regarding their Princess's toileting state.
They sought for ideas to make her less tearful
And set aside thoughts that the potty was fearful.

"Perhaps," Paula said, "the Lansinarian device,
might be used to construct her a seat she found nice."
But Artemis replied, with a look that was withering,
"An invisible toilet? That is not worth considering!"

LOL! Nice.

But its at least refreshing to hear it said openly that the supporting charcters for Wonder Woman's book got trashed for money.

Well, trashing them for money is an old tradition. When Kanigher thought the comic would sell better without his Silver Age cast additions--including Wonder Girl--her personally appeared in the comic to fire them.



In the case of the current run, I don't know that they were exactly trashed for money--if Azzarello had wanted them for creative reasons, he probably could have had them. But I certainly agree that if DC thought the old supporting cast were likely to be money makers, they would have insisted on keeping them.

Meanwhile, Steve Trevor, who appeared in Justice League Dark again this month, has a high profile in DC comics than he has ever had.