Wonder Woman 14 (spoilers)

[Javier Velasco]

They didnt engage with the rest of the world during the last run either and it wasn't a problem for them to establish an embassy then.

The Amazons DID engage with the rest of the world. In the last reboot of WW. Both Perez and Jimenez had PI opened to the Patriarch's World, including visitors. Other writers had the Amazons setting up additional Themyscirian Women's Shelters, Wonder Scouts, etc. Also we are more than a year into both WW and JLA and no one has mentioned Diana ever having been an ambassador.

(We've also lost NML, Emerald Twilight (most likely) and New Krypton for instance.

That is correct, but no one is arguing that Superman is not a "new" character. Because he is. Just as Diana is.

Well that's down to our individual perception of what does remain of the past.
I like to believe that the 5 year gap isn't an empty void and some or most of the stories we know happened during them.
If you like to think it's filled with completely new stuff, that's down to you really.

Please don't tell me what i believe :)
My post is in regards to your statement that "most of her past" is the same. A statement that has still not been backed up with a single incident that has been documented in the new DCU as being the same. Every incident or character from Diana's past that we have seen so far has been different than before. And with each new revelation, more of Diana's past stories become untenable.

This is not down to individual perception. It is down to what has actually appeared in the comic. So once more I will ask... one unchanged character or one line or one incident that references Diana's life on PI before she became WW that is the same, not similar, as it was before the reboot.

[Outside_85]

The Amazons DID engage with the rest of the world. In the last reboot of WW. Both Perez and Jimenez had PI opened to the Patriarch's World, including visitors. Other writers had the Amazons setting up additional Themyscirian Women's Shelters, Wonder Scouts, etc. Also we are more than a year into both WW and JLA and no one has mentioned Diana ever having been an ambassador.

Has it ever been relevant to the story to mention it?

Please don't tell me what i believe :)

And I didn't, I outlined what I think is the difference between us.

My post is in regards to your statement that "most of her past" is the same. A statement that has still not been backed up with a single incident that has been documented in the new DCU as being the same. Every incident or character from Diana's past that we have seen so far has been different than before. And with each new revelation, more of Diana's past stories become untenable.

You haven't seen anything from Batman's or GL's past either.

This is not down to individual perception. It is down to what has actually appeared in the comic. So once more I will ask... one unchanged character or one line or one incident that references Diana's life on PI before she became WW that is the same, not similar, as it was before the reboot.

Sry but thats just nonsense, because you are suddenly asking for a complete flashback of her past before it counts.

[Frank Fournier]

The past stories we have already read could still have happened, just altered to fit this new reality.
I like to believe that the 5 year gap isn't an empty void and some or most of the stories we know happened during them.
If you like to think it's filled with completely new stuff, that's down to you really.

So in the 5 years gap...
...Hippolyta isn't a blonde...
...the Amazons are inspired by a brave American named Diana who died to make a costume in her honor...
...the princess Diana wins the Contest to have the rights to wear that costume when she goes on Man's world to stop Ares from using atomic bombs...
...Steve is an old man married with Etta Candy...
...Zeus wants to rape Diana...
...Diana is forced to do a Challenge of the gods...
...Diana meets the other heroes during the Legends event...
...an old Greek female mentor and her daughter are Diana's best friends...
...Diana finds another Amazons tribe in the Middle-East...
...the Amazons are interacting on Man's world peacefully...
...Hippolyta is using a super-villain disguise unwillingly...
...Diana dies during the War of the gods...
...Diana is -somehow- ressurrected...
...Diana works at a fast food place...
...Diana is betrayed by a female pregnant friend who was in league with Ares...
...Diana loses the second Contest...
...Artemis becomes Wonder Woman...
...Diana is lost in space...
...Diana starts a revolution on another planet...
...Artemis dies...
...Diana becomes Wonder Woman again...
...Cassie Sandsmark is inspired by Diana to become Wonder Girl...
...Diana dies...
...Diana becomes a goddess of Truth on Mount Olympus...
...Hippolyta becomes Wonder Woman...
...Hippolyta goes back in time during World War 2 with the JSA...
...Hippolyta is living a normal life with a family on Man's world until Diana becomes Wonder Woman for the third times living in a weird spaceship-like...
...Diana is able to get Artemis back alive...
...Diana asks Artemis to train Cassie...
...a civil war is happening on Paradise Island...
...Diana is mad at Hippolyta...
...Hippolyta dies...
...Trevor Barnes is flirting with Diana as many others before...
...Diana decides to cut off her hair...
...Diana write a book...
...Diana becomes an ambassador...
...Hera destroys Paradise Island...
...Diana is blinding herself in order to kill off Medusa...
...Diana goes in Hades' world to retrieve a lost one...
...Ares kills Hades...
...Diana who can see again flirts with Aquaman, then flirts with Batman...
...Diana dies with the JLA but got better like them...
...Diana snaps Max Lord's neck live on TV...
...Diana is on a trial...
...Diana takes one year off to go meditate in a monastery while Donna Troy becomes Wonder Woman...
...Diana works as a special agent using a secret identity with Nemesis who flirts with her...
...a fake Athena opens a shelter for women in the USA...
...Hippolyta is back alive as Paradise Island is back intact...
...the Amazons are invading the United States of America...
...Hippolyta is forced to live alone as a punishment on Paradise Island when the Amazons went to live a normal life on Man's world unwillingly...
...Athena is killing herself after the Greek gods come back from their captivity on Apokolips...
...Diana starts worshipping a Hawaiian god...
...after Zeus murdered her god Diana punches Zeus...
...Diana kills Ares with an axe on his head...
...the Amazons come back with their memories restored on Paradise Island...
...a happy ending happen when the Amazons are able to help Diana in the USA...
...Odyssey...
...Flashpoint...
...and then the New 52.

Well, good luck with changing all that to fit this New 52 reality. I find amuring that in 5 years Diana died three times, became a goddess once, Artemis-Hippolyta-Donna took over as Wonder Woman once, Diana had more than 6 would be lovers, etc.

I say everything else before the New 52 doesn't exist anymore since Odyssey. The 5 years gap is currently an empty void for Wonder Woman.

[brettc1]

So in the 5 years gap...

...the Amazons come back with their memories restored on Paradise Island...
...a happy ending happen when the Amazons are able to help Diana in the USA...

In between these two point it should read

...Tom is awesome.

[Javier Velasco]

Sry but thats just nonsense, because you are suddenly asking for a complete flashback of her past before it counts.

Moderator Hat: Please don't characterize another poster's post in a negative way.

Poster Hat: I am not asking for a complete flashback. I am not asking for Azzarello to do anything.
What I am asking is for you to show even one published instance to back up your assertion that "most" of Diana's past has remained the same.

I personally don't care if it is the same or it is not. I don't care if it is a soft re-boot or a hard one. I don't care if she is the same character or a different character.

But I don't see any evidence that anything is known of what occurred either in the 5 JLA years or in her life at PI. So a statement that "most of her past" is the same, to me at least, needs some proof.

[Outside_85]

But I don't see any evidence that anything is known of what occurred either in the 5 JLA years or in her life at PI. So a statement that "most of her past" is the same, to me at least, needs some proof.

Lets turn it around then and ask where's the prof everything is gone?

[dupersuper]

Lets turn it around then and ask where's the prof everything is gone?

It's hard to prove a negative, but it doesn't look good. I'm a Superman fanboy: I feel your Flashpoint pain, but you may have to learn to let go.

[Outside_85]

It's hard to prove a negative, but it doesn't look good. I'm a Superman fanboy: I feel your Flashpoint pain, but you may have to learn to let go.

Not without proof I don't.

[Javier Velasco]

Lets turn it around then and ask where's the prof everything is gone?

I would... if I were in a discussion with someone who made that assertion.

it is certainly not my position. Nor have I stated that it is. So why would I want to defend it?

I would guess that most WW readers haven't the slightest idea what has occurred in the current character's past. That is why I took issue with your statement that MOST of her past is still intact. Since there has been very little information as to events in Diana's past one way or the other, how can one make a statement of quantitative fact about it?

The only caveat to things being one way or the other being that when familiar characters are being re-introduced, they (Hippolyta, the Amazons, Steve, Etta, the Cheetah, the Gods) do not resemble their previous counterparts.

If Azzarello really wanted to only selectively change the fact that Diana now had a father, rather than a clay origin, why would he have gone out of the way to ask for a total redesign of Hippolyta? Especially if the character was only going to be around for two issues. He wanted to make a point. This isn't the pre-52 Hippolyta. Its a totally new character. And he wanted people to instantly recognize that. So in essence, Diana didn't just get a new father. She got a new mother as well. If he wanted us to really feel as if a character close to the pre-boot Diana was being lied to, it would have made much more sense to surround her with familiar characters. Instead he has done the opposite.

[Outside_85]

If Azzarello really wanted to only selectively change the fact that Diana now had a father, rather than a clay origin, why would he have gone out of the way to ask for a total redesign of Hippolyta? Especially if the character was only going to be around for two issues. He wanted to make a point. This isn't the pre-52 Hippolyta. Its a totally new character. And he wanted people to instantly recognize that. So in essence, Diana didn't just get a new father. She got a new mother as well. If he wanted us to really feel as if a character close to the pre-boot Diana was being lied to, it would have made much more sense to surround her with familiar characters. Instead he has done the opposite.

If he wanted to make her a completely new character he wouldnt have called her Hippolyta for starters, then he wouldnt have made her blond (again) and he wouldn't have pulled the 'lied to you for your own protection' card.

[slvn]

But as far as this story goes, Azz got online and said it was a soft reboot. I guess I should have wondered more at the time just what that meant, but it is clear he and I dont agree. Based on the stories of volume 2 and 3...

You're gracious to say that you should have wondered more what he meant. We all should have. In retrospect, it's pretty clear that he was saying that he was going to change continuity more than a little. Suppose I were to say the following:

Yeah, it was a soft reboot. LOL. Overly strict observance of continuity is bad for storytelling, and in the good old days of Greek mythology, people didn't complain when different stories about the same character contradicted each other, as long as the core of the character remained the same.

See what I did there? I said that it was a soft reboot, but you could tell I didn't mean it because of the LOL, right? Or, if you just thought someone was tickling me, you could tell from the next sentence that, whatever I meant or didn't mean by "soft reboot," I didn't think the old continuity should be followed too closely.

So how different is that from what Azzarello said?

[Laughs] Her origin's intact, okay? This is a real soft reboot.

Her origin's intact. Listen, her origin's intact. [Laughs] I'm not doing anything with her origin in issue one. Maybe later....

New stories have to be told, made up around these icons. You just have to keep the core....
Nobody screamed bloody murder when people were making up different stories continuity-wise back then [in ancient Greece], like now. We'll be fine...I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts continuity with things. I don't think it does service to the book itself.

You can reread the quote and its context for yourself at http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=34485

I know I'm being repetitive about this, but it's driving me crazy that "Azzarello said it was a soft boot" has become a micro-meme on this board, and people ignore the fact that he was laughing when he said it, and that he expressed his disinterest in strict continuity mere moments afterwards. It's almost as if people were to quote a recent statement by President Obama about his youth in Kenya as if it were a confession, ignoring the fact that it was a joke he made on the Jay Leno show.

Her lasso is forged by Hephaestus.

Not that this is an important point, but wasn't her lasso still forged by Heph, according to Hippolyta as cited by Diana in #7?


I think part of the confusion about hard vs. soft reboot is semantics. When I hear "hard reboot" in a Wonder Woman context, I think "like Perez did," and Azzarello's reboot is different from that in that it did explicitly overturn everything all the old adventures right away and started her superhero career from scratch in #1. Instead, it started five years into her superhero career and it has contradicted points of past continuity as it has gone along. I don't know that this makes it any less "hard," but it certainly makes it different from Perez's way of rebooting. Maybe we need a new term--how about rolling reboot?

Come on--let's add to the comics fans' glossary today (assuming that this term hasn't been used before for comics). Let's agree that Azzarello has done a rolling reboot.

[Gaelforce]

You're gracious to say that you should have wondered more what he meant. We all should have. In retrospect, it's pretty clear that he was saying that he was going to change continuity more than a little. Suppose I were to say the following:

Yeah, it was a soft reboot. LOL. Overly strict observance of continuity is bad for storytelling, and in the good old days of Greek mythology, people didn't complain when different stories about the same character contradicted each other, as long as the core of the character remained the same.

See what I did there? I said that it was a soft reboot, but you could tell I didn't mean it because of the LOL, right? Or, if you just thought someone was tickling me, you could tell from the next sentence that, whatever I meant or didn't mean by "soft reboot," I didn't think the old continuity should be followed too closely.

So how different is that from what Azzarello said?




You can reread the quote and its context for yourself at http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=34485

I know I'm being repetitive about this, but it's driving me crazy that "Azzarello said it was a soft boot" has become a micro-meme on this board, and people ignore the fact that he was laughing when he said it, and that he expressed his disinterest in strict continuity mere moments afterwards. It's almost as if people were to quote a recent statement by President Obama about his youth in Kenya as if it were a confession, ignoring the fact that it was a joke he made on the Jay Leno show.



Not that this is an important point, but wasn't her lasso still forged by Heph, according to Hippolyta as cited by Diana in #7?


I think part of the confusion about hard vs. soft reboot is semantics. When I hear "hard reboot" in a Wonder Woman context, I think "like Perez did," and Azzarello's reboot is different from that in that it did explicitly overturn everything all the old adventures right away and started her superhero career from scratch in #1. Instead, it started five years into her superhero career and it has contradicted points of past continuity as it has gone along. I don't know that this makes it any less "hard," but it certainly makes it different from Perez's way of rebooting. Maybe we need a new term--how about rolling reboot?

Come on--let's add to the comics fans' glossary today (assuming that this term hasn't been used before for comics). Let's agree that Azzarello has done a rolling reboot.

I like the term :)

However, until we see what the true origin is for Diana (i.e. where did the Amazons come from, what part, if any, did the goddesses play, was there a contest, etc.) we can't apply 'rolling reboot'.

For example, by definitions provided, it can be argued that Perez wasn't a hard reboot. There were Amazons, there was Hippolyta, there was a clay birth, there was Steve Trevor and a contest, etc.

There are currently way too many holes to differentiate between 'hard reboot' and 'rolling reboot.'

Considering that Ares is her mentor and not her enemy, though, that right there changes one of the key reasons she left Themyscira in the first place, and I sure don't remember anything in any continuity about her initial arrival being heralded by sword swinging and throat slitting.

Try comparing it to the changes in Superman. His origin remains intact, but now both Kents are dead. We're getting to see a lot of what happened in Action, but from what we've seen so far, how many key Superman story arcs could not have happened?

Then look at Diana and the long list of story arcs that are now negated. Big difference as far as I can see.

So yeah, I guess it just comes down to 'how many key changes does it take to qualify as a hard reboot.' A classic question right up there with 'how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop.'

The world may never know ;)

[brettc1]

Lets turn it around then and ask where's the prof everything is gone?

Okay what could be there?

First arc with Ares? No.

First arc with Cheetah? No

Challenge of the Gods? We can only hope not.

First meeting with Circe? Lets see, she tried to turn her back into clay. So lets mark that a no.

Ixion the Assassin? Seems not.

The Bana Mighdahl man-killing Amazons? As Aleka says, that's just a trip home to drop off her laundry now.

The whole War of the Gods thing? That started off with the Amazons turning up be begin peaceful relations with the outside world. Tick no for that one, and also for the one where the visitors to the island are tricked by Eris/Strife.

The second contest? Bit difficult without Artemis and any of the other Amazons giving a crap what goes on outside their borders.

For the whole first 100 issues about the only story I can think of that might have still happened is the lost in space adventure.

[Frank Fournier]

So in the last 5 years Diana died three times (note: Circe did use that clay factor in her favor to kill off Diana once), Diana became a goddess of Truth, Zeus tried to rape Diana, Steve was married with a not black woman named Etta Candy, Artemis, Hippolyta and Donna Troy became Wonder Woman once, Diana went in space, Diana had a invisible spaceship, Diana became an ambassador, Diana took one year off to meditate, Diana became a special agent, the Amazons invade the United States of America, etc? REALLY?

[Outside_85]

So in the last 5 years Diana died three times (note: Circe did use that clay factor in her favor to kill off Diana once), Diana became a goddess of Truth, Zeus tried to rape Diana, Steve was married with a not black woman named Etta Candy, Artemis, Hippolyta and Donna Troy became Wonder Woman once, Diana went in space, Diana had a invisible spaceship, Diana became an ambassador, Diana took one year off to meditate, Diana became a special agent, the Amazons invade the United States of America, etc? REALLY?

It is entirely possible.