Page 15 of 21 FirstFirst ... 5111213141516171819 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 225 of 303
  1. #211
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Part of me want to respond to each of those, but another part of me just cba engaging in another pointless argument with someone who wants it to be a hard reboot.
    Outside_85,

    Your argument that things are mostly the same about her past prior to leaving PI would be stronger if you could come up with instances (or a single instance) of something that occurred to Diana pre-boot and post boot on PI.

  2. #212
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Outside_85,

    Your argument that things are mostly the same about her past prior to leaving PI would be stronger if you could come up with instances (or a single instance) of something that occurred to Diana pre-boot and post boot on PI.
    The problem is that what you, and several others, consider evidence of a hard reboot are things I consider small details. Details that evidently has meant nothing in regards to how Diana has turned out today. Also I have a suspicion that what we constitute as a hard reboot is also different.

    Now for me to consider something a hard reboot, the background of any given character has to have been heavily changed along with how they act.
    Diana is still
    -Princess of the Amazons
    -Born on Paradise Island
    -Daughter of Hippolyta
    -Left the island because of Steve Trevor
    -Heavily involved with Greek mythology
    -Is still far more than some muscle woman that resolves every problem she has by punching it

    On the other hand, a hard rebooted character is someone like Cassandra Sandsmark that only appears to have four things in common with her past self:
    -Blond
    -Mother is called Helena
    -Archaeology
    -Called Wonder Girl

  3. #213
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    As I have stated before, I only know what I read, not from hearing an interview. From what I read, he said soft reboot. Can't really see the context of how or why he said it, but he did say soft reboot.
    I didn't hear it either, as far as I can remember, but we can get the context and the laughter from the written report of the interview, to which I linked above. Here's the link again:

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=34485

    If you click on that and read it, you can see that, according to the reporter, there was laughter in the sentence where he said it was a soft reboot:


    "[Laughs] Her origin's intact, okay? This is a real soft reboot."


    Now, that by itself doesn't necessarily prove anything. Maybe the laugh was a sinister cackle at the thought of all the innocent readers he was deceiving. But that's where context comes in. If by saying "soft reboot" he was seriously trying to deceive us into believing that he was going to keep (or, given Odyssey, not really just keep but restore) most old continuity "as is," then why, in the interview, would he say something like this?:

    "I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts continuity with things. I don't think it does service to the book itself."

    Or this..

    "Wonder Woman's a myth, just like the gods, and I put her in the same boat as Superman or Batman. It's more of a modern myth. These things have to be revitalized. New stories have to be told, made up around these icons. You just have to keep the core. Hercules remains relevant because, what is Hercules? He's a strong man who made terrible mistakes. There's tons of stories you can tell around that kind of myth. Nobody screamed bloody murder when people were making up different stories continuity-wise back then, like now. We'll be fine! We'll be fine!"

    So if you read the whole interview, and not just the four words "it's a...soft reboot," you're able to put those words in context, and you get a fuller sense of what he was saying about his willingness to conflict with prior continuity. And if all you heard was "soft reboot," fair enough; it's not your fault you heard his statement out of context. But it's not his fault either, is it? Do we really want to be so humorless as to say that a writer can't joke around or use hyperbole in an interview, or so fundamentalist (or wondementalist, in this case) as to say that every word in an interview has to be literally accurate even when taken out of context?

    (And I shouldn't just say "you"--I think I took "soft reboot" too seriously and literally too, until I went back and reread the interview months later. It's OK; we all misinterpret sometimes. And I think he could have phrased it better. But for all the reasons above, I don't see it as a lie.)
    Last edited by slvn; 11-29-2012 at 04:47 AM.

  4. #214
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The problem is that what you, and several others, consider evidence of a hard reboot are things I consider small details. Details that evidently has meant nothing in regards to how Diana has turned out today. Also I have a suspicion that what we constitute as a hard reboot is also different.
    I am not arguing whether this is a soft or hard reboot. I am taking exception with your statement "Since most of her past is still the same, no it really isn't."

    The things that you mentioned (being Princess of the Amazons, being the child of Hippolyta, being born on PI, etc) are not her "past." They are character descriptions. The "past" is made up of experiences. And to date, (unlike GL or Batman) we know of nothing that occurred in the previous runs that could possibly have occurred to the character in this run. Remember DC made the big point that apart from GL and Bats, EVERYONE else was going to be totally re-tooled

    Also, historically, it was readily admitted that the Perez Wonder Woman was a totally new character. And she had much more in common with the previous WW than this one does with her immediate predecessor. Rucka and Heinberg, both also claimed that they felt they were starting from scratch.

    I, personally, feel two things. The first is that by using the term "soft reboot", all that Azzarello was saying was that rather than making the changes in the character apparent from issue 1 (like Superman or any of the other rebooted characters), that the changes would become apparent after a few issues. But that the changes would be just as radical.

    Second, I have never been aware of comic book writers swearing an oath of truthfulness. In the past, we have had creators come on boards and out-and-out lie, when they wanted to keep important plot points from being spoiled. It doesn't matter if Azzarello said that the "origin is intact", we now know that it isn't. We don't have to suddenly try to figure out "Oh, what he really meant is that she is still an Amazon Princess." Nor do we need to wring our hands because he either made a "mistake" or flat out lied.

    It is clear that he doesn't really like being interviewed. It is also clear that he really doesn't like being confronted. So why is it hard to imagine that his answers may not be either helpful or constructive?

  5. #215
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    The things that you mentioned (being Princess of the Amazons, being the child of Hippolyta, being born on PI, etc) are not her "past." They are character descriptions. The "past" is made up of experiences. And to date, (unlike GL or Batman) we know of nothing that occurred in the previous runs that could possibly have occurred to the character in this run. Remember DC made the big point that apart from GL and Bats, EVERYONE else was going to be totally re-tooled
    She could still have been PI's ambassador for a time, and War of the Gods could also have happened, they are just not exactly how we remember them.

  6. #216
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Part of me want to respond to each of those, but another part of me just cba engaging in another pointless argument with someone who wants it to be a hard reboot.
    Actually I didnt want the hard reboot, which is largely the problem
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  7. #217
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,099

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Actually I didnt want the hard reboot, which is largely the problem
    I'm not sure what people were expecting.
    I mean, they had no choice but to reboot Perez. Think about it. Perez was already rebooted. Before Azzarello, what did we got? Odyssey, where reality has been rewritten. And in the end, they do not go back to what things were before, but create some timeline that combine the two. So, either they don't reboot and they go from a timeline we saw two pages of and know nothing about or they ignore it completely and do whatever they want.
    Do you guys get what I'm saying? They had nothing to "soft reboot" even if they wanted to.
    Besides, what would it change, honestly?
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  8. #218
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    She could still have been PI's ambassador for a time, and War of the Gods could also have happened, they are just not exactly how we remember them.
    Perhaps, however given the Amazons that we saw (and their habit of mating and then killing sailors), they didn't seem the types to be looking to engage with the outside world. Also, neither Azzarello's Diana nor Johns Diana is particularly diplomatic. She doesn't give off the impression of someone who spent anytime being an "ambassador" of anything.

    Regarding War of the Gods, it is also doubtful that it could have occurred since I don't believe that Diana has met Captain Marvel yet, and her interactions with Superman have been limited. So while something "like" War of the Gods might have happened, it would be very different because there has not yet been any crisis on that scale in the new 52. If there had been, the status quo in the JLA would be much different now.

    So sure, WW "could" have had certain situations that resembled what the past WW has had, but in both instances, Azzarello can easily say (and probably WOULD say) that neither those things occurred. Until, Azzarello (or Johns) points to a specific similar event to the past WW run, there isn't any similar past. To date, we don't even know how new Steve got on or off the island. And whenever a familiar character or incident is introduced, both writer seem to go out of their way to let us know that this is not the same (Hippolyta, Amazon tribe, set of Olymipan Gods, magic lasso, Steve trevor, Etta Candy, etc) that we saw previously.

  9. #219
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    6,572

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Perhaps, however given the Amazons that we saw (and their habit of mating and then killing sailors), they didn't seem the types to be looking to engage with the outside world. Also, neither Azzarello's Diana nor Johns Diana is particularly diplomatic. She doesn't give off the impression of someone who spent anytime being an "ambassador" of anything.
    They didnt engage with the rest of the world during the last run either and it wasn't a problem for them to establish an embassy then.
    Granted Johns' Diana is little more than a sword wielding thug. But it's not like Brians flies off the handle at the slightest provokation (like when Lennox introduced himself). That said, we often bring up Diana's ambassadorial tenure, but we dont really ask if she was considered a good one?

    Like when the the US posted a fleet around PI, Diana flat out refused to even discuss handing over the plans for the purple ray (right as she may have been in not doing to, entering into any diplomatic/political venture with immovable demands is usually not a great starting point).

    Regarding War of the Gods, it is also doubtful that it could have occurred since I don't believe that Diana has met Captain Marvel yet, and her interactions with Superman have been limited. So while something "like" War of the Gods might have happened, it would be very different because there has not yet been any crisis on that scale in the new 52. If there had been, the status quo in the JLA would be much different now.
    And thats kinda my point about all of this. The past stories we have already read could still have happened, just altered to fit this new reality.
    Granted some stories are lost because their basis have been completely removed, the Clayface thing for instance (but thinking about it, it just is a bizarre story to begin with...Diana may have been made of clay, but it's not like she bleeds clay is it?), but such things do happen with the likes of Flashpoint. (We've also lost NML, Emerald Twilight (most likely) and New Krypton for instance.

    So sure, WW "could" have had certain situations that resembled what the past WW has had, but in both instances, Azzarello can easily say (and probably WOULD say) that neither those things occurred. Until, Azzarello (or Johns) points to a specific similar event to the past WW run, there isn't any similar past. To date, we don't even know how new Steve got on or off the island. And whenever a familiar character or incident is introduced, both writer seem to go out of their way to let us know that this is not the same (Hippolyta, Amazon tribe, set of Olymipan Gods, magic lasso, Steve trevor, Etta Candy, etc) that we saw previously.
    Well that's down to our individual perception of what does remain of the past.
    I like to believe that the 5 year gap isn't an empty void and some or most of the stories we know happened during them.
    If you like to think it's filled with completely new stuff, that's down to you really.

  10. #220
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I'm not sure what people were expecting.
    I mean, they had no choice but to reboot Perez. Think about it. Perez was already rebooted. Before Azzarello, what did we got? Odyssey, where reality has been rewritten. And in the end, they do not go back to what things were before, but create some timeline that combine the two. So, either they don't reboot and they go from a timeline we saw two pages of and know nothing about or they ignore it completely and do whatever they want.
    Do you guys get what I'm saying? They had nothing to "soft reboot" even if they wanted to.
    Besides, what would it change, honestly?
    Actually, at the end of Odyssey the only thing that has changed is her costume. During Odyssey Artemis died, Etta is a doctor and Hippolyta is trapped in an alternate dimension. At its conclusion all this is wiped away and Diana is the only one who even remembers it. So there was no reboot - more like a parallel reality.

    But as far as this story goes, Azz got online and said it was a soft reboot. I guess I should have wondered more at the time just what that meant, but it is clear he and I dont agree. Based on the stories of volume 2 and 3...

    She was formed from clay and brought to life. This is affirmed in Challenge of the Gods, the Byrne run, and the Clayface story.

    Her powers come from numerous gods. This is affirmed in Perez #1 and several other issues.

    The Amazons dont have babies or raise their own children on the island.

    Wonder Woman is never trained by Ares - has not even met him unitl Perez #6.

    Her lasso is forged by Hephaestus.

    She has no extra powers when she takes off her bracers.

    All of these and more besides has changed. The fact she is still a Princess of the Amazons means little in terms of what kind of reboot it is. In Man of Steel Superman still comes from Krypton and grows up in Smallville but while that general point stays vast specifics are altered. What Krypton is, when he first uses his powers, his parents being alive when he becomes Superman, how his costume is invulnerable - it very different and it is a 'hard' reboot.

    My feeling is that for some folks the only way this could be called a hard reboot would be if the main character had no super-powers and was a man raised in the back streets of Paris.
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-29-2012 at 05:30 AM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  11. #221
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,099

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Actually, at the end of Odyssey the only thing that has changed is her costume. During Odyssey Artemis died, Etta is a doctor and Hippolyta is trapped in an alternate dimension. At its conclusion all this is wiped away and Diana is the only one who even remembers it. So there was no reboot - more like a parallel reality.

    But as far as this story goes, Azz got online and said it was a soft reboot. I guess I should have wondered more at the time just what that meant, but it is clear he and I dont agree. Based on the stories of volume 2 and 3...

    She was formed from clay and brought to life. This is affirmed in Challenge of the Gods, the Byrne run, and the Clayface story.

    Her powers come from numerous gods. This is affirmed in Perez #1 and several other issues.

    The Amazons dont have babies or raise their own children on the island.

    Wonder Woman is never trained by Ares - has not even met him unitl Perez #6.

    Her lasso is forged by Hephaestus.

    She has no extra powers when she takes off her bracers.

    All of these and more besides has changed. The fact she is still a Princess of the Amazons means little in terms of what kind of reboot it is. In Man of Steel Superman still comes from Krypton and grows up in Smallville but while that general point stays vast specifics are altered. What Krypton is, when he first uses his powers, his parents being alive when he becomes Superman, how his costume is invulnerable - it very different and it is a 'hard' reboot.

    My feeling is that for some folks the only way this could be called a hard reboot would be if the main character had no super-powers and was a man raised in the back streets of Paris.
    Honestly, I just don't think Azzarello has the same definition of "soft reboot" than hardcore comics fans. Amazon coming from Paradise Island to fight evil in Man's World with an orgin that at first seems to be the same (since he couldn't spoil the revelation of issue 3)......to a casual reader that sounds similar enough.
    And at the end of Odyssey,we only know that her costume changed and that the Amazons are still alive. Considering the point of odyssey in the first place, I don'tg think most of her stories prior to that point were supposed to happen.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  12. #222
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Honestly, I just don't think Azzarello has the same definition of "soft reboot" than hardcore comics fans. Amazon coming from Paradise Island to fight evil in Man's World with an orgin that at first seems to be the same (since he couldn't spoil the revelation of issue 3)......to a casual reader that sounds similar enough.
    And at the end of Odyssey,we only know that her costume changed and that the Amazons are still alive. Considering the point of odyssey in the first place, I don'tg think most of her stories prior to that point were supposed to happen.
    I would say that there is little data to support that - especially since in the simultaneous Justice Leage Gen Lost story Max Lord and Booster Gold both remember her. Sacrifice certainly still exists, and indeed there is nothing to indicate that anything has been removed or even altered.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  13. #223
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,099

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I would say that there is little data to support that - especially since in the simultaneous Justice Leage Gen Lost story Max Lord and Booster Gold both remember her. Sacrifice certainly still exists, and indeed there is nothing to indicate that anything has been removed or even altered.
    You mean, appart from the fact she looked like she was ten years younger, that she did change, and that the whole goal was to create a "regular continuity" that was a mix between pre Odyssey and Odyssey? Not much yeah. By the time the thing ended they just didn't care anyway, they were going to reboot.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  14. #224
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Beyond the Dune Sea.
    Posts
    11,526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You mean, appart from the fact she looked like she was ten years younger, that she did change, and that the whole goal was to create a "regular continuity" that was a mix between pre Odyssey and Odyssey? Not much yeah. By the time the thing ended they just didn't care anyway, they were going to reboot.
    You cant tell anything much from her appearance because it could just be the artist. When we see her in JL Gen Lost she looks the same as in Vol 3, just with a different costume.

    She changed only as much as the experience changed her. There is no evidence that any of the timeline was altered. And whatever JMS intended, he bailed after four issues of hyperbole.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  15. #225
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,099

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    You cant tell anything much from her appearance because it could just be the artist. When we see her in JL Gen Lost she looks the same as in Vol 3, just with a different costume.

    She changed only as much as the experience changed her. There is no evidence that any of the timeline was altered. And whatever JMS intended, he bailed after four issues of hyperbole.
    And by the time the saga was over, we all knew the new 52 was coming.
    Honestly, I don't think even they knew how the ending worked. The whole thing never made sense anyway. WW put in an alternate reality where she never did any of the things she did while the rest of the universe remains unchanged as if she never disappeared? That must be the dumbest idea I ever heard.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •