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  1. #181
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Then the shocking moment of issue 3 is completely meaningless.
    Not at all.

    Prior to the nu52, Diana was defnitively made from clay. There were plots that revolved around it (she was de-evolved to clay, Clayface sought her out for her clay, etc.) and the gods responsible publicly acknowledged it. That this is now just a story she was told makes this a hard re-boot (in addition to things like Aleka/other children on Themyscira, sex pirate raids, Hippolyta's hair color, Ares as her patron and not her archnemesis)

    This doesn't make the 'shocking moment' meaningless. It just redefines the world of the character as a hard re-boot and not a soft one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Not at all.

    Prior to the nu52, Diana was defnitively made from clay. There were plots that revolved around it (she was de-evolved to clay, Clayface sought her out for her clay, etc.) and the gods responsible publicly acknowledged it. That this is now just a story she was told makes this a hard re-boot (in addition to things like Aleka/other children on Themyscira, sex pirate raids, Hippolyta's hair color, Ares as her patron and not her archnemesis)
    A hard reboot means everything about the characters past is changed before the book starts, Diana's was for all intents a purposes intact when the New 52 started.
    This is a soft reboot because suddenly emerging skeletons from the past is not rare in comics and this story could just as well have been told pre-New52 as it can now. And theres the small detail they'd have retold her origins if it was.
    Last edited by Outside_85; 11-27-2012 at 08:54 AM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    That info about the Amazons

    Stuff about her mother and sisters and that doesnt tell me about her
    The fact that she was raised by people who believed or pretended to believe that she was their paragon, but also different from them, is not only information about those people--it's information about her, and specifically about her upbringing.

    Tells me nothing about what she is like

    Tells me nothing about what she is like
    It's part of her background, just like knowing who her old friends or what she does for a living or why she lives in London is knowledge about her background. None of that by itself is characterization--though knowing how she feels about and interacts with her friends and employer and city could be characterization. And knowing that she is indifferent to being Zeus' daughter but cares a lot about her biological as well as emotional relationship to her mother and sisters' s is characterization.

    when she hasnt seen him ever - couldnt have worked that one out
    Some posters seemed to believe that she would become father-identified and shift her allegiance to Zeus after finding out that he was her father. We know now that this has not happened.

    Already knew she was Wonder Woman
    Knowing she would defend the helpless isn't the same as seen the same as having deep empathy for someone who doesn't seem to fit into her environment. In issues 2 to 4, it was pretty clear to me that she empathizes with Zola BECAUSE Zola was a misfit, a "girl in the middle of nowhere," as "Clay" had sometimes felt herself to be. And I was focusing mostly on background, because that was what this conversation was about; if we want to talk more about characterization, we can talk about her rough but affectionate sense of humor with Zola, her mixture of protectiveness and deference to Zola's autonomy (e.g., in picking a doctor), and her quickness in taking Zola to her heart (so that by issue 8 she is able to describe Zola as someone she loves).

    Already knew she was Wonder Woman
    So if we didn't see her humility, we'd say "oh, that's OK, we already know she's Wonder Woman, so she's humble"? I doubt it. People would say Azzarello was writing an arrogant Wonder Woman. But instead, we see her acknowledging mistakes in issue 1, 7, 8 and elsewhere, and we see in 4 that she is open to have a young woman like Zola remind her of the value of family.

    Why? 10 months later still dont know.
    Why did she doubt the clarity and winnability of the war on evil? Are you serious? The god of women has just turned her mother to stone and her sisters to snakes--and this was in part her mother's fault. The mother she trusted had just reveled that she had been lying throughout Diana's life. People she trusted had done dishonest things. Evil seemed to be winning. Why wouldn't she doubt the clarity and winnability of the war on evil?

    Wonder Woman cares and trusts people. No? Surely not.
    Obvious? And yet the specific portrayal or her trust was enough to cause no end of controversy on this forum about whether she trusted Lennox and others too much, and the portrayal of her compassion makes her too impulsive in trying to help the male Amazons. So the specific ways in which her care and trust manifest themselves must not have been quite as nondescript as you imply.

    except Hal of course, but yes, nice to know.
    We always hurt the ones we love. :)

    never thought she was unintelligent
    It was important to see her intelligence portrayed, though, wasn't it? Some people complain that it hasn't been portrayed enough.

    Wonder Woman, you mean?
    I mean that Wonder Woman showed impressive compassion by bestowing self-love to someone who had almost forced her to marry her, sentenced her to death by hanging, and/or doomed her to an eternity of being digested in his guts.

    See above
    It's odd to me that you seem to be suggesting that because Wonder Woman has traditionally been a smart, compassionate champion it wasn't important to portray her that way in this run.

    Yes, she got a power up.
    In terms of characterization, the power up is less important than the fact that she has been protecting people--even her enemies--form her power. It's about self-control.

    Wonder Woman is stronger than Hercules? Can't say that's news.
    Since a few months ago a lot of posters seemed to think that she might be less powerful than Lennox and that she would not be unique among demigods, I would say it was news to some.

    She knows how to fight, but what is her favourtie desert?
    The one where her sister lives, maybe?

    Or if you mean dessert, maybe it's harpy's egg cake.

    We do know what kind of beverage War shared with her, if that's any good to you.

    By the way, what was the first alcoholic beverage the DCnU Clark Kent drank? What does he like for breakfast? What music does he enjoy, and does he like to go clubbing? Who were his mentors (besides his parents) and rivals when he was 12 or 13 years old? What was his childhood nickname? Was he ever teased about anything? At the age of 12 or 13, what were his favorite subjects in school (as Diana's seemed to be combat and not religion)? What, if anything, does Bruce Wayne wear when he sleeps?

    I do know Clark's and Bruce's careers, but they weren't royalty who lived on a secluded island until five years ago. It's doubtful that she has a career in our sense.

    Wonder Woman did that? Shocking

    OMG the shocks just dont stop.
    Again, I'm baffled by what seems to be your idea that characterization doesn't count if it's consistent with who Wonder Woman historically has been. And yet you don't want her to be characterized in ways that are not consistent with who she has always been. So I can only conclude that you don't want her to be characterized at all. No wonder you want Azz to fill up the pages with biographical data like what she does for a living instead of characterization.

    So to sum up - I forgot she is 23, fights with a staff in training, and has some some new siblings to advance the plot, and has some new fancy powers.
    To me, this is just a stunningly reductive reading. It's like you're only looking for "facts," not really characterization, with drama and emotion.

    A lot of this is her superhero persona but does not tell me about her other life. Yes, I know Data is smart and has lots of science skills, but what is his favourtite instrument [the violin] what does he read [Arthur Conan Doyle] what does he eat [a sort of paste that lubricates his biofunctions]. In other words, what does he do when he is not being science officer and third in command of the Enterprise D.
    I forget; did we learn all of that in the first season? Anyway, how is knowing his favorite instrument and what he eats that much better than knowing one of Diana's preferred forms of entertainment, one of her favorite breakfasts, and that she sleeps in the nude?

    I don't know what Odysseus' favorite snack food is, but the Odyssey was still a pretty good book.

    But all he has told could have been done in half the number of issues.
    If by "all he has told" you mean mere "facts," he could have told that in a Wikipedia entry, too. I'm glad he decided to tell a good story, with room for dramatic buildup and suspense, instead.

    But again I ask--would you really want issues 13 and 14 to be faster paced? Should we have learned the Firstborn's and Siracca's origins in the very first issue in which they were introduced. Did we need to see Diana soften Siracca's heart in the same issue in which she met her? Should we have already seen what War will do with his knowledge about Wonder Woman's power, or what Apollo and his allies will do to defend themselves from the threats War and Diana pose? It seems to me that to try to cram all this into a couple of issues would be a comical mess.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-27-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  4. #184
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    A hard reboot means everything about the characters past is changed before the book starts, Diana's was for all intents a purposes intact when the New 52 started.
    This is a soft reboot because suddenly emerging skeletons from the past is not rare in comics and this story could just as well have been told pre-New52 as it can now. And theres the small detail they'd have retold her origins if it was.
    Again, this isn't a 'skeleton', this is a contradiction to past storytelling.

    PreNu52 - Amazons were the souls of past abused women given shelter by Gaea and reincarnated by the gods. The island looked like this:





    Amazons like this:



    They were immortal and didn't have children (firmly established in The Circle for a recent reference) and Diana was raised as the only child of the Amazons.

    Diana was sculpted from clay and given life by the goddesses as seen in her origin story, her re-told origin story, The Circle, and confirmed by the gods and by multiple pre-DCnu plotlines that involved her being made from clay.

    Ares was her arch-enemy, not her mentor.

    These are hard contradictions, not 'skeletons' or something that was simply unknown. The nature of the Amazons (origin, culture, island, etc), Diana as the only child raised there, the nature and origin of Diana were all firmly established facts.

    Not to mention you'd have thought that when Zeus tried to rape Diana, Hippolyta might have mentioned to Zeus that a good reason not to do it is because it's his own kid, but hey... ;)

    I can't say everything has changed because we don't know all that much, but enough has changed to call this a hard re-boot (previous facts blatantly and directly contradicted).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1990TheAtlasoftheDCUniverseThemyscira.jpg   200px-Themyscira_001.jpg  

  5. #185
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    The fact that she was raised by people who believed or pretended to believe that she was their paragon, but also different from them, is not only information about those people--it's information about her, and specifically about her upbringing.



    It's part of her background, just like knowing who her old friends or what she does for a living or why she lives in London is knowledge about her background. None of that by itself is characterization--though knowing how she feels about and interacts with her friends and employer and city could be characterization. And knowing that she is indifferent to being Zeus' daughter but cares a lot about her biological as well as emotional relationship to her mother and sisters' s is characterization.



    Some posters seemed to believe that she would become father-identified and shift her allegiance to Zeus after finding out that he was her father. We know now that this has not happened.



    Knowing she would defend the helpless isn't the same as seen the same as having deep empathy for someone who doesn't seem to fit into her environment. In issues 2 to 4, it was pretty clear to me that she empathizes with Zola BECAUSE Zola was a misfit, a "girl in the middle of nowhere," as "Clay" had sometimes felt herself to be. And I was focusing mostly on background, because that was what this conversation was about; if we want to talk more about characterization, we can talk about her rough but affectionate sense of humor with Zola, her mixture of protectiveness and deference to Zola's autonomy (e.g., in picking a doctor), and her quickness in taking Zola to her heart (so that by issue 8 she is able to describe Zola as someone she loves).



    So if we didn't see her humility, we'd say "oh, that's OK, we already know she's Wonder Woman, so she's humble"? I doubt it. People would say Azzarello was writing an arrogant Wonder Woman. But instead, we see her acknowledging mistakes in issue 1, 7, 8 and elsewhere, and we see in 4 that she is open to have a young woman like Zola remind her of the value of family.



    Why did she doubt the clarity and winnability of the war on evil? Are you serious? The god of women has just turned her mother to stone and her sisters to snakes--and this was in part her mother's fault. The mother she trusted had just reveled that she had been lying throughout Diana's life. People she trusted had done dishonest things. Evil seemed to be winning. Why wouldn't she doubt the clarity and winnability of the war on evil?



    Obvious? And yet the specific portrayal or her trust was enough to cause no end of controversy on this forum about whether she trusted Lennox and others too much, and the portrayal of her compassion makes her too impulsive in trying to help the male Amazons. So the specific ways in which her care and trust manifest themselves must not have been quite as nondescript as you imply.



    We always hurt the ones we love. :)



    It was important to see her intelligence portrayed, though, wasn't it? Some people complain that it hasn't been portrayed enough.



    I mean that Wonder Woman showed impressive compassion by bestowing self-love to someone who had almost forced her to marry her, sentenced her to death by hanging, and/or doomed her to an eternity of being digested in his guts.



    It's odd to me that you seem to be suggesting that because Wonder Woman has traditionally been a smart, compassionate champion it wasn't important to portray her that way in this run.



    In terms of characterization, the power up is less important than the fact that she has been protecting people--even her enemies--form her power. It's about self-control.



    Since a few months ago a lot of posters seemed to think that she might be less powerful than Lennox and that she would not be unique among demigods, I would say it was news to some.



    The one where her sister lives, maybe?

    Or if you mean dessert, maybe it's harpy's egg cake.

    We do know what kind of beverage War shared with her, if that's any good to you.

    By the way, what was the first alcoholic beverage the DCnU Clark Kent drank? What does he like for breakfast? What music does he enjoy, and does he like to go clubbing? Who were his mentors (besides his parents) and rivals when he was 12 or 13 years old? What was his childhood nickname? Was he ever teased about anything? At the age of 12 or 13, what were his favorite subjects in school (as Diana's seemed to be combat and not religion)? What, if anything, does Bruce Wayne wear when he sleeps?

    I do know Clark's and Bruce's careers, but they weren't royalty who lived on a secluded island until five years ago. It's doubtful that she has a career in our sense.



    Again, I'm baffled by what seems to be your idea that characterization doesn't count if it's consistent with who Wonder Woman historically has been. And yet you don't want her to be characterized in ways that are not consistent with who she has always been. So I can only conclude that you don't want her to be characterized at all. No wonder you want Azz to fill up the pages with biographical data like what she does for a living instead of characterization.



    To me, this is just a stunningly reductive reading. It's like you're only looking for "facts," not really characterization, with drama and emotion.



    I forget; did we learn all of that in the first season? Anyway, how is knowing his favorite instrument and what he eats that much better than knowing one of Diana's preferred forms of entertainment, one of her favorite breakfasts, and that she sleeps in the nude?

    I don't know what Odysseus' favorite snack food is, but the Odyssey was still a pretty good book.



    If by "all he has told" you mean mere "facts," he could have told that in a Wikipedia entry, too. I'm glad he decided to tell a good story, with room for dramatic buildup and suspense, instead.

    But again I ask--would you really want issues 13 and 14 to be faster paced? Should we have learned the Firstborn's and Siracca's origins in the very first issue in which they were introduced. Did we need to see Diana soften Siracca's heart in the same issue in which she met her? Should we have already seen what War will do with his knowledge about Wonder Woman's power, or what Apollo and his allies will do to defend themselves from the threats War and Diana pose? It seems to me that to try to cram all this into a couple of issues would be a comical mess.
    To me, the blatant thing that's missing is details about her life since she left Themyscira (not to mention the circumstances surrounding her leaving). We have seen no sign of a secret identity in JL or in WW, yet in her nu52 profile, it says her secret ID is Diana Prince. How a hero lives when they're not superheroing has always been a big part of comics. Some books like Batman and GL didn't have to re-establish anything in the nuDC because those books didn't skip a beat during Flashpoint, but other high profile heroes such as Superman and the Flash have had their frameworks re-established. We know what they do and how they get by when not in costume, but we don't even know if Diana *has* a life outside of being the hero.

    Again, I contend that given the amount of time since the relaunch we should have seen something of it outside of her bedroom in London (the only way we knew it was in London as I recall was because there was a caption that said 'London')

    I just don't think that it's too much to ask that we start seeing a bit more of Diana's world as it existed before Zola whatshername was dropped into her room.

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    deleted, no point
    Last edited by Outside_85; 11-27-2012 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    To me, the blatant thing that's missing is details about her life since she left Themyscira (not to mention the circumstances surrounding her leaving). We have seen no sign of a secret identity in JL or in WW, yet in her nu52 profile, it says her secret ID is Diana Prince. How a hero lives when they're not superheroing has always been a big part of comics. Some books like Batman and GL didn't have to re-establish anything in the nuDC because those books didn't skip a beat during Flashpoint, but other high profile heroes such as Superman and the Flash have had their frameworks re-established. We know what they do and how they get by when not in costume, but we don't even know if Diana *has* a life outside of being the hero.

    Again, I contend that given the amount of time since the relaunch we should have seen something of it outside of her bedroom in London (the only way we knew it was in London as I recall was because there was a caption that said 'London')

    I just don't think that it's too much to ask that we start seeing a bit more of Diana's world as it existed before Zola whatshername was dropped into her room.
    I can understand that. My point to Brett was that we've actually been shown a great deal about Wonder Woman. Whether we've seen the specific aspects of her life that particular readers really want to see is another question. Sure, if you feel like a Wonder Woman comic has to show details of the five years the character has spent away form Paradise Island, you're going to be disappointed with this run in that regard. My own feeling is that her life in those five years isn't what this run is about, so it might be better to leave most of those details for a run to which they are more relevant. As Outside and Rob have said, many details could be introduced by "off-the-cuff" comments--but while those are fine for favorite breakfast and favorite music, I'm not sure they're a good way to introduce information that could be important to someone else's idea for a run. If her liveliehood isn't relevant to the story Azz is telling, it's probably better that he not throw in random facts, like "she works for Argus," which might conflict with an idea the next author might have.

    Also, if we take Azz at his word that WW is somehow happening in the same timeframe as JL, then we know from JL that two of her main social connections have been lost to her by now; she's no longer hanging out with Barbara or Steve, and this probably also means that she's not working with ARGUS as much. She's only been in "man's world" for five years, and she's probably been pretty busy with the Justice League and ARGUS and her own superheroics, so she probably doesn't have quite as many social or professional networks as some of the other heroes. So with Steve and Barbara and their circles of acquaintances more or less out of her life, there may not be as much to say about her social and professional world right now.

    We have seen no sign of a secret identity in JL or in WW, yet in her nu52 profile, it says her secret ID is Diana Prince.
    Did it say "secret"? I thought it might have been a publicly known civilian identity. Someone might have told her that the name "Wonder Woman" is too made-up-sounding, and "Diana of Themyscira" too formal, for routine paperwork.

    If it did say "secret," maybe it was just a little premature, or a bit of a tease. Based on the conversation between Wonder Woman and Superman at the end of #12, and based on the fact that she sometimes wears WW insignia with civilian clothes, I think it's pretty clear that she does not have a secret ID yet. But, if she sees that having a secret ID has been useful to Superman, then she may have one soon.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-27-2012 at 12:26 PM.

  8. #188
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    A hard reboot means everything about the characters past is changed before the book starts, Diana's was for all intents a purposes intact when the New 52 started.
    This is a soft reboot because suddenly emerging skeletons from the past is not rare in comics and this story could just as well have been told pre-New52 as it can now. And theres the small detail they'd have retold her origins if it was.
    It's a hard reboot.

    As has been pointed out to me, the timeline has now been changed so Wonder Woman was sired by Zeus. Prior to this there was no secret cover up, as evidenced by the stories of volume 2 and indeed by Crisis On Infinite Earths itself. She was formed from clay. In COIE #12 we see this was the truth.

    Personally I think that, unlike Superman and Batman, this she means she is a completely different person. As indeed is Etta Candy.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    To me, the blatant thing that's missing is details about her life since she left Themyscira (not to mention the circumstances surrounding her leaving). We have seen no sign of a secret identity in JL or in WW, yet in her nu52 profile, it says her secret ID is Diana Prince. How a hero lives when they're not superheroing has always been a big part of comics. Some books like Batman and GL didn't have to re-establish anything in the nuDC because those books didn't skip a beat during Flashpoint, but other high profile heroes such as Superman and the Flash have had their frameworks re-established. We know what they do and how they get by when not in costume, but we don't even know if Diana *has* a life outside of being the hero.

    Again, I contend that given the amount of time since the relaunch we should have seen something of it outside of her bedroom in London (the only way we knew it was in London as I recall was because there was a caption that said 'London')

    I just don't think that it's too much to ask that we start seeing a bit more of Diana's world as it existed before Zola whatshername was dropped into her room.
    What IS Zola's last name?

    I agree with Gael. Most of the stuff slvn spoke about speaks to her character as Wonder Woman but does not give me any information about who she is when she is not in armour. And you dont have to change the beats in the book - you could still have a cliffhanger issue with Sirraca the first time we see her and just put more in the book. Looking at the pics of the underground palace they take up an awful lot of room without telling me very much. I get the idea - its big and dark.

    Who found her the apartment? Does she have neighbours? Does ANYONE talk to her when she is not ordering breakfast? Or does she only exist to fight gods?
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  10. #190
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    What IS Zola's last name?

    I agree with Gael. Most of the stuff slvn spoke about speaks to her character as Wonder Woman but does not give me any information about who she is when she is not in armour. And you dont have to change the beats in the book - you could still have a cliffhanger issue with Sirraca the first time we see her and just put more in the book. Looking at the pics of the underground palace they take up an awful lot of room without telling me very much. I get the idea - its big and dark.

    Who found her the apartment? Does she have neighbours? Does ANYONE talk to her when she is not ordering breakfast? Or does she only exist to fight gods?
    You all act as if a character even needs to have a name to be a character, let alone a last name.
    What is Clint Eastwood's in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? What is the Joker's name? What is V's name? What is the Captain's name in Nextwave? What is Harvey Keitel's girlfriend name in Who's That Knocking At My Door?
    The don't have one, yet they are characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You all act as if a character even needs to have a name to be a character, let alone a last name.
    What is Clint Eastwood's in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? What is the Joker's name? What is V's name? What is the Captain's name in Nextwave? What is Harvey Keitel's girlfriend name in Who's That Knocking At My Door?
    The don't have one, yet they are characters.
    ^That.

    Why do you people complain about Azzarello using cliches in one part and then complain about him not doing standard stuff in another?

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    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You all act as if a character even needs to have a name to be a character, let alone a last name.
    What is Clint Eastwood's in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? What is the Joker's name? What is V's name? What is the Captain's name in Nextwave? What is Harvey Keitel's girlfriend name in Who's That Knocking At My Door?
    The don't have one, yet they are characters.
    Again, to me, the name isn't as important as the existence of a life of some sort - some sign somewhere that she had friends/neighbors/acquaintances before Zola Whatshername dropped into her bedroom.

    A basic part of comic books, imo, has always been 'what do they do when they're not out superheroing.' It's Clark trying to win over Lois while getting his story to Perry on time. It's Peter trying to make enough money with photos to make sure Aunt May can afford to see a doctor. It's Bruce going out on a date with Vicki to keep up public appearances. It's Barbara meeting her dad for lunch at a diner and getting set up on a blind date.

    The overall feel is that Diana sits in a room in London and either waits for the JL to call or for strange women to appear at her bedside in the middle of the night. She doesn't exist outside of protecting pregnant women and babies. There's this vacuum that isn't being filled that I think is overdue. I was hoping that there would be some Diana-world-building after the first 12 issue arc, but that arc hasn't ended (nor does there seem to be an end in sight)

    Does she have a secret ID? Does she have a job/income? Does she have neighbors/friends outside of what we've seen in JL? Five years since she left Themyscira with nothing to show for it other than a closet full of armor and weapons and a bed in London somewhere.

    I do believe we're getting to see a lot of her personality in the book and we're getting insight to who she is, but not about what she does or how she spends her time, and that, to me, is a dimension that's lacking in the book.

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    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Again, to me, the name isn't as important as the existence of a life of some sort - some sign somewhere that she had friends/neighbors/acquaintances before Zola Whatshername dropped into her bedroom.

    A basic part of comic books, imo, has always been 'what do they do when they're not out superheroing.' It's Clark trying to win over Lois while getting his story to Perry on time. It's Peter trying to make enough money with photos to make sure Aunt May can afford to see a doctor. It's Bruce going out on a date with Vicki to keep up public appearances. It's Barbara meeting her dad for lunch at a diner and getting set up on a blind date.

    The overall feel is that Diana sits in a room in London and either waits for the JL to call or for strange women to appear at her bedside in the middle of the night. She doesn't exist outside of protecting pregnant women and babies. There's this vacuum that isn't being filled that I think is overdue. I was hoping that there would be some Diana-world-building after the first 12 issue arc, but that arc hasn't ended (nor does there seem to be an end in sight)

    Does she have a secret ID? Does she have a job/income? Does she have neighbors/friends outside of what we've seen in JL? Five years since she left Themyscira with nothing to show for it other than a closet full of armor and weapons and a bed in London somewhere.

    I do believe we're getting to see a lot of her personality in the book and we're getting insight to who she is, but not about what she does or how she spends her time, and that, to me, is a dimension that's lacking in the book.
    I always took it as granted she didn't have a secret ID, considering we saw her with a civilian attire a few times without mentionning any. I also took it as granted that she didn't have a job (and she certainly doesn't do lectures anymore.....after all the Amazons aren't really into the mission for peace thing anymore). The income question is a valid one, although I certainly don't see outside of the realm of possibility that the Brittish governement just allow her to leave here so they can have a famous superhero around if needed.
    In general I just took it as granted that she didn't put the separation between her "hero time" and her "down time" as we're used to in the genre. And I don't really see the need to see her neigbours or whatever.
    But maybe that's because I have more of a European background as far as comic books go, and am more used to series where this just don't matter. We never meet Tintin's neighbours, or even his boss, and we don't care. We never know who lives next to Blake and Mortimer, or to Spirou and Fantasio and, again, nobody cares.
    I'm just not interested in seeing random civilians with no connections to the plot at all, just so I can say "awwwww, Diana is relatable because she has friend". Don't. Give. A. Damn.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I always took it as granted she didn't have a secret ID, considering we saw her with a civilian attire a few times without mentionning any. I also took it as granted that she didn't have a job (and she certainly doesn't do lectures anymore.....after all the Amazons aren't really into the mission for peace thing anymore). The income question is a valid one, although I certainly don't see outside of the realm of possibility that the Brittish governement just allow her to leave here so they can have a famous superhero around if needed.
    In general I just took it as granted that she didn't put the separation between her "hero time" and her "down time" as we're used to in the genre. And I don't really see the need to see her neigbours or whatever.
    But maybe that's because I have more of a European background as far as comic books go, and am more used to series where this just don't matter. We never meet Tintin's neighbours, or even his boss, and we don't care. We never know who lives next to Blake and Mortimer, or to Spirou and Fantasio and, again, nobody cares.
    I'm just not interested in seeing random civilians with no connections to the plot at all, just so I can say "awwwww, Diana is relatable because she has friend". Don't. Give. A. Damn.
    Yeah, it's a style preference really. I like seeing some more depth to the life of the hero outside of superheroing. Some folks don't. I can respect that :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    What IS Zola's last name?Who found her the apartment? Does she have neighbours? Does ANYONE talk to her when she is not ordering breakfast? Or does she only exist to fight gods?
    Who found her the apartment? Seriously? This is important information? I don't even care who helped my friends find their apartments.

    Who found Clark his apartment? Does he have any neighbors, other than his fifth-dimensional landlady? Does he even eat breakfast?

    Hopefully, the Wonder Woman comic will run for many more years. There should be plenty of time for various creative teams to show us what she does when she has downtime. They can give us a big party where Dionysus tends bar, Lennox hits on Etta, and Zola, for whom Diana's Apache friend will be babysitting, can ask Diana if Steve is really unattached (because she thinks he's kinda cute). Siracca can share Diana's flat and we can see what it's like to live in London if you're a sandstorm being. Diana can introduce her half-brother Apollo to her boyfriend Superman, and they can talk about whatever sun gods talk about when they're kicking back. We can learn all the names of Diana's clubbing buddies and the waitresses who serve her tomatoes. Diana can replace General Darnell at the Pentagon and War can become her secretary. There can be a special issue #0.5 in which we get the thrilling story of Diana's apartment search and watch in amazement as she completes her payroll paperwork at ARGUS. Right now, though, Diana's a little busy.


    Most of the stuff slvn spoke about speaks to her character as Wonder Woman but does not give me any information about who she is when she is not in armour.
    Alright--well, right now her home life when she's not in costume, as we see clearly towards the beginning of issue 13, includes playing host to an ice-cream gobbling ex-queen of the gods, a "firecracker" friend who can't be left alone with the aforementioned former queen, and a bemused and rocky half-brother. It's practically a domestic sitcom.

    Seriously, this isn't just her superhero life. It's her family. Issues 2, 3, 4 and 0 are about Diana in the context of the family she grew up with, much more than they are about her life of a superhero. In a way, 7 is about that too, since she learns about her family. Issues 9 and 10 are about her almost getting married to her uncle. How much more familial and personal than that can you get?

    Yeah, we don't know from this book what she had been up to before Zola came to her door. But we do know from JL that she had, within the last few years, lost someone she believed to be one of her closest friends, and that she had even more recently severed her relationship with her boyfriend, which probably also meant distancing herself from an organization she had been working with. So she may have had a little lull in her personal life--a perfect vacuum for Zola to step into. But at least she has her headbanger community.

    Looking at the pics of the underground palace they take up an awful lot of room without telling me very much. I get the idea - its big and dark.
    It's a visual medium. It's not just about giving us "the idea," but about giving us the mood. And there's plenty in issues 13 and 14, as I pointed out above. How much do you want to overstuff these issues.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-27-2012 at 04:30 PM.

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