Wonder Woman 14 (spoilers)

[Robotman4]

While the issue itself was fine I still felt a little disappointed. The solits showing the Orion vs Wonder Woman fight for next issue came out so long ago that nothing else will compare to the excitement I have for that encounter. I just can't wait for Orion to be a regular in this book! Siracca's story was tragic but in true Wonder Woman fashion Diana was able to use love and compassion to console her and create a sisterly bond. They desperately need a better fill in artist. Atkins is ok but I really hope they don't use Burchett anymore for the finishes. Curious to see who the doctor is thats talking to the First Born.

[brettc1]

And have you not been given information about Wonder Woman? Or are you only interesting in trivia?

I thought this was a comic book with superheroes?

You could say Star Trek was a tv show with spaceships, but it still has a lot of stuff about the characters inside the ships as well. That's the difference between a long running sci-fi show and WWE. One has a plot that sometimes includes a fight scene, and the other has a fight scene that sometimes includes a plot.

Also, nothing about Wonder Woman is trivial

[Outside_85]

You could say Star Trek was a tv show with spaceships, but it still has a lot of stuff about the characters inside the ships as well. That's the difference between a long running sci-fi show and WWE. One has a plot that sometimes includes a fight scene, and the other has a fight scene that sometimes includes a plot.

Also, nothing about Wonder Woman is trivial

And this is a story that sometimes includes trivia.

[brettc1]

And this is a story that sometimes includes trivia.

True. In 15 months we have learned that she like tomatoes for breakfast, rock music, has an apartment in London, and a friend somewhere in the US.

She also got into fights with peers and Amazons have to do some amazing feat each year for their birthdays to count.

It just seem like very little in terms of how long the story has been going on. By comparison I know almost as much about Hephaestus - he loves his family, rescues Manazons, has a replationship with Aphrodite and shares same with Ares. He also feels rejected by his mother.

It just seems pretty thing for 15 months worth of story telling. In terms of who she is when she is not being a super-hero...well we really dont know much. She has no friends that are not a part of this story that we have seen, except the ones who are currently snakes and we havent seen them in over about a year.

[Outside_85]

It just seem like very little in terms of how long the story has been going on. By comparison I know almost as much about Hephaestus - he loves his family, rescues Manazons, has a replationship with Aphrodite and shares same with Ares. He also feels rejected by his mother.

Thing is you only know this because it has been a part of the story. If Diana had decided to go to ARGUS for armanents before heading into Hades, we would probably know more about that relationship...and not know anything about Hepheastus and his boys.

[dupersuper]

And have you not been given information about Wonder Woman? Or are you only interesting in trivia?

I'm liking the story, but asking for the protagonists job, friends, motivation, and some idea what they've done for the past 5 years isn't "trivia". Trivia would be the address of her London flat or how many stars are on her costume.

Superman likes beef burgonion (I know that's spelled wrong) is trivia. Superman was raised by Ma and Pa Kent and works at a newspaper reporter with Lois, Jimmy, Perry, et al is his most common setting and informs his character and facilitates many of his past stories.

[wagthedog]

Since the story as nothing to do with Diana's downtime and because he cba with adding AvX info boxes for your convenience?

Again, you are taking points to extreme hyperbole. I don't want to be spoon fed all this info, but it would be nice after 15 issues to get more than what we have. The story is way to decompressed as it is. I would submit that of the 15 issues, I bet he could have fit them into 10-11 books.

Also, let us not assume what I am reading. I gather that AvX is the marvel event that is happening. I don't get these books so am not sure about the references you are talking about. I only get Wonder Woman and Justice League for now.

[brettc1]

Thing is you only know this because it has been a part of the story. If Diana had decided to go to ARGUS for armanents before heading into Hades, we would probably know more about that relationship...and not know anything about Hepheastus and his boys.

You are right, but only because as DuperSuper, Gaelforce and Wagthedog point out, the way Chiang and Azzarello use 22 pages does not allow for it. I'm not saying I need the cookie cutter boxes page format that made up #0, but if the use of page space was maximised in every issue as it was in that one then you could have told all the story we have had so far and half as much again.

[slvn]

True. In 15 months we have learned that she like tomatoes for breakfast, rock music, has an apartment in London, and a friend somewhere in the US.

She also got into fights with peers and Amazons have to do some amazing feat each year for their birthdays to count.

That's what you got, huh? That does seem remarkably thin.

I learned those things, but also that she was considered to be the ultimate Amazon because she was created "without the taint of male seed"; that the clay birth was in fact a cover story created by her loving, protective mother and sisters; that she is 23 years old; that she was conceived in a moment of absolute control surrendered; that her father is Zeus (like it or not); that she does not consider that he has given her anything, other than bare paternity and some family members; that she empathizes with and cares for Zola as a "girl in the middle of nowhere"; that she knows she isn't perfect and has the humility to learn from her juniors and to admit mistakes; that she believes deeply in the war of good against evil but sometimes lately doubted that clarity and winnability of that battle, until she reaffirmed her convictions during her sojourn in hell; that she sometimes cares, and possibly trusts, too much and can be impulsive; that she loves everyone; that she prefers to fight her own battles (see #10 especially); that she will not be bonded with any man, woman or god by proof without trust; that she's smart enough to figure out Heph's plan and that she should shoot Hades with love, and merciful enough to do this favor for someone who tried to do horrendous things to her; that the people and gods around her tend to see her as their champion; that the cuffs she wears serve in some way to protect her enemies; that she has brothers named Lennox and Milan and a sister named Siracca, along with their full-god siblings; that Apollo considers her more powerful that her fellow demigods and perhaps more powerful than the full-god children of Zeus; that for games, she prefers the staff; that War was one of her mentors, and that she inspired him to feel mercy, and that she resisted her demand to be ruthless; that she prefers to turns hearts, as she does with Siracca, than to slay enemies; and so on. That's thicker.

[Outside_85]

Also, let us not assume what I am reading. I gather that AvX is the marvel event that is happening. I don't get these books so am not sure about the references you are talking about. I only get Wonder Woman and Justice League for now.

Hmm you must be of that 1% of readers who hasn't then, my apologies.
For your information then; Marvel released a limited A vs. X series to go with the main event, this book only dealt with fights and had added boxes during the issues giving you 'Fun Facts' about the participants, an example:
Captain America's shield is indestructible.
or
Emma Frost can enter an organic diamond form.

I'm liking the story, but asking for the protagonists job, friends, motivation, and some idea what they've done for the past 5 years isn't "trivia". Trivia would be the address of her London flat or how many stars are on her costume.

Superman likes beef burgonion (I know that's spelled wrong) is trivia. Superman was raised by Ma and Pa Kent and works at a newspaper reporter with Lois, Jimmy, Perry, et al is his most common setting and informs his character and facilitates many of his past stories.

Well I consider it trivia as long as it has nothing to do with the main story.

You are right, but only because as DuperSuper, Gaelforce and Wagthedog point out, the way Chiang and Azzarello use 22 pages does not allow for it. I'm not saying I need the cookie cutter boxes page format that made up #0, but if the use of page space was maximised in every issue as it was in that one then you could have told all the story we have had so far and half as much again.

The problem is that much of that space has been used to build up the Gods as functioning characters. I may be alone with this, but I think it helps to know what Diana's potential foes are doing when they are not standing in front of her and what kind of people they are. Also I dont recall any pages getting used for something completely pointless. So for my money, the pages have been maximised.
(I might point out that one of the things people claim make Batman great is the strength of his gallery of foes...If Diana's become that much stronger because of this, I'd be damn happy it went this way)

Finally, I had a look into Perez's run...and I am sorry, but I really don't want to see anyone replicate how Diana got her first friend besides Steve; which was Hermes dropping her off right behind her :S

[Gaelforce]

Hmm you must be of that 1% of readers who hasn't then, my apologies.
For your information then; Marvel released a limited A vs. X series to go with the main event, this book only dealt with fights and had added boxes during the issues giving you 'Fun Facts' about the participants, an example:
Captain America's shield is indestructible.
or
Emma Frost can enter an organic diamond form.



Well I consider it trivia as long as it has nothing to do with the main story.



The problem is that much of that space has been used to build up the Gods as functioning characters. I may be alone with this, but I think it helps to know what Diana's potential foes are doing when they are not standing in front of her and what kind of people they are. Also I dont recall any pages getting used for something completely pointless. So for my money, the pages have been maximised.
(I might point out that one of the things people claim make Batman great is the strength of his gallery of foes...If Diana's become that much stronger because of this, I'd be damn happy it went this way)

Finally, I had a look into Perez's run...and I am sorry, but I really don't want to see anyone replicate how Diana got her first friend besides Steve; which was Hermes dropping her off right behind her :S

As I've said before, I think he's building up the gods at the expense of building up the main character. Diana only appeared on 8 pages of this latest issue and I still firmly believe that with the exception of an issue here and there, the main character should be in more than 36% of the book.

We've had 14 issues of god-world-building. I would like to see even half that time devoted to Diana-world-building. Over a year has past in the DCU, and if I didn't read JL, I wouldn't even know that Steve existed, that he had anything to do with her leaving the island (we still don't know the circumstances), how she's seen by the world and her fellow heroes, or that she had any friends outside of Themyscira prior to Zola being dropped in her lap.

[brettc1]

That's what you got, huh? That does seem remarkably thin.

I learned those things, but also that she was considered to be the ultimate Amazon because she was created "without the taint of male seed";

That info about the Amazons

that the clay birth was in fact a cover story created by her loving, protective mother and sisters;

Stuff about her mother and sisters and that doesnt tell me about her

that she is 23 years old

Give you that one

that she was conceived in a moment of absolute control surrendered

Tells me nothing about what she is like

that her father is Zeus (like it or not);

Tells me nothing about what she is like

that she does not consider that he has given her anything, other than bare paternity and some family members;

when she hasnt seen him ever - couldnt have worked that one out

that she empathizes with and cares for Zola as a "girl in the middle of nowhere"

Already knew she was Wonder Woman

that she knows she isn't perfect and has the humility to learn from her juniors and to admit mistakes;

Already knew she was Wonder Woman

that she believes deeply in the war of good against evil but sometimes lately doubted that clarity and winnability of that battle,

Why? 10 months later still dont know.

that she sometimes cares, and possibly trusts, too much and can be impulsive;

Wonder Woman cares and trusts people. No? Surely not.

that she loves everyone;

except Hal of course, but yes, nice to know.

that she prefers to fight her own battles (see #10 especially)

that might be true

that she will not be bonded with any man, woman or god by proof without trust;

Naturally. Only men bear the burder of proof

that she's smart enough to figure out Heph's plan and that she should shoot Hades with love,

never thought she was unintelligent

and merciful enough to do this favor for someone who tried to do horrendous things to her;

Wonder Woman, you mean?

that the people and gods around her tend to see her as their champion;

See above

that the cuffs she wears serve in some way to protect her enemies;

Yes, she got a power up.

that she has brothers named Lennox and Milan and a sister named Siracca, along with their full-god siblings;

fair enough

that Apollo considers her more powerful that her fellow demigods and perhaps more powerful than the full-god children of Zeus;

Wonder Woman is stronger than Hercules? Can't say that's news.

that for games, she prefers the staff;

True. So long ago I had forgotten.

that War was one of her mentors,[

She knows how to fight, but what is her favourtie desert?

and that she inspired him to feel mercy, and that she resisted her demand to be ruthless

Wonder Woman did that? Shocking.

that she prefers to turns hearts, as she does with Siracca, than to slay enemies

OMG the shocks just dont stop.

and so on. That's thicker.

So to sum up - I forgot she is 23, fights with a staff in training, and has some some new siblings to advance the plot, and has some new fancy powers.

A lot of this is her superhero persona but does not tell me about her other life. Yes, I know Data is smart and has lots of science skills, but what is his favourtite instrument [the violin] what does he read [Arthur Conan Doyle] what does he eat [a sort of paste that lubricates his biofunctions]. In other words, what does he do when he is not being science officer and third in command of the Enterprise D.

Azz has put in some good stuff about Wonder Woman - and by good I mean not awful like Johns. But all he has told could have been done in half the number of issues.

PS We both forgot her sisters are accused sex pirates. Have to say I did not see that one coming.

[Outside_85]

As I've said before, I think he's building up the gods at the expense of building up the main character. Diana only appeared on 8 pages of this latest issue and I still firmly believe that with the exception of an issue here and there, the main character should be in more than 36% of the book.

The thing is that the Gods are the ones who have been completely rewritten, while much of Diana has remained intact and some of the shocking moments of the story so far relies on the pre-FP story remaining as it were, this is not a hard reboot despite what some people say.
So it's a question of who needs it more.

We've had 14 issues of god-world-building. I would like to see even half that time devoted to Diana-world-building. Over a year has past in the DCU, and if I didn't read JL, I wouldn't even know that Steve existed, that he had anything to do with her leaving the island (we still don't know the circumstances), how she's seen by the world and her fellow heroes, or that she had any friends outside of Themyscira prior to Zola being dropped in her lap.

Thing is however only 1 of those worlds matter to the current story.
This story is going on a need-to-know basis in order for it to work, all the things we don't know are not needed to make this story run smoothly.

[wagthedog]

The thing is that the Gods are the ones who have been completely rewritten, while much of Diana has remained intact and some of the shocking moments of the story so far relies on the pre-FP story remaining as it were, this is not a hard reboot despite what some people say.
So it's a question of who needs it more.

Of course this is a hard reboot. There is nothing of the Perez days that are still intact in this series. The clay origin WAS her origin. Now it is not. To say this is anything but a complete reboot (hence the meaning 'hard' reboot) is to be disingenous at best.

[Outside_85]

Of course this is a hard reboot. There is nothing of the Perez days that are still intact in this series. The clay origin WAS her origin. Now it is not. To say this is anything but a complete reboot (hence the meaning 'hard' reboot) is to be disingenous at best.

Then the shocking moment of issue 3 is completely meaningless.