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  1. #106
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    Brett points out that Athene gets called Justice and therefore might be inclined to punish the Amazons.

    There are lots of different conceptions of justice, though. In The Odyssey, Athena seems to think it just for Odysseus and Telemachus to slay not only Penepole's suitors but also her haindmaidens, without inquiring too closely into whether they were all guilty of capital crimes against Ithaca's royal household. It may be that she judges men as collectively guilty of grave crimes against women and sees the raids as a small taste of retribution. I doubt that Diana would share this thinking, and if she brings back the Amazons, I feel confident that she'll find a way to stop the raids. But she's not her family's rightful judge, jury and executioner, and it 's not up to her to decide that their virtual genocide at Hera's hands is the rightful punishment for their alleged misdeeds

    It's true that Wonder Woman didn't let Captain Nazi loose -- but she also didn't lop off his head or leave him under the influence of some non-judicially imposed death-like enchantment. She turned him over to the authorities --which could be trickier in the case of Hera or the Amazons. Would London or Virginia authorities want to risk the wrath of the gods to try to make a very difficult attempted murder case against Hera? Could they legally prove that Hera sent the centaurs? Would Libya's new government want to try an ex- and possibly future goddess for an obscure murderer committed over 90 years ago? And could anyone make murder charges stick against any of the Amazons for unwitnessed acts committed at least 30 years ago on the high seas? I think the world's main concern would be not punishment but prevention of future raids -- and Diana would share that concern.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-24-2012 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And Xena is a good example - there are episodes where she is confronted by family members of people she slaughtered while they tried to defend their villiage from her army.
    The kinda' same thing happened to Teal'q in Stargate.
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    This is something I pondered on facebook this week. "The heart wants what the heart wants, even if it wants what's worst for it." Which basically proves that they heart, and the associated organs further south, is an idiot, and perhaps people would be better served using their brains.
    Perhaps, but in America we were just reminded that otherwise-smart people often do yield to their "idiotic" hearts (and southern parts). General Petraeus, the now ex- director of the CIA, was by all accounts smart and even self-disciplined, but he turned out to be neither when it came to his love life. The same was true of Bill Clinton--even his political enemies acknowledge that he's smart, but he was idiotic to have a relationship with a White House intern. I'm not saying that smart people SHOULD do stupid things for love or lust, but it's pretty clear that they DO.

    Sadly, Diana is wrong about Zeus giving her nothing - he gave her life in this new continuity, and without his rampant self-indulgence we would not even have the worlds greatest hero. For me outside the story that is a depressing thought.
    Well, by calling him her father she acknowledges that he gave her life; I think she meant he gave nothing after her conception--he was her sperm donor, but an absentee father after that. But sometimes bad acts can have good consequences. It can be a kind of miracle. It's something Dr. Manhattan discovers in Watchmen, and it's something that inspires him to save the world (or try to, anyway). I agree with Dr. Manhattan; unintended good consequences seem more wonderful and inspiring than depressing to me.

    Back to Hera - I'm sure she didnt start of criminally insane but then neither I expect did the Joker. He is a pitiable creature but you also cant get away from the fact that he is evil. I have the first print of The Killing Joke downstairs and I remember Batman trying to help him in that story, even after what he had done to Babs. That's because Bats is a hero, and noble. Every instinct he had would have been to put his fist through the Joker's face.
    True--but to me it's important symbolically and culturally, in terms of gender, that the goddess of women was not intrinsically evil but was warped by the effects of patriarchy. The same may turn out to be true of the Amazons. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, as the daughter of the greatest patriarch and matriarch, may be able to transcend all the hurts of the war between men and women, and move on.

  4. #109
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    Funny to see that the moment the New Gods are back, they're already dying off again. I hope, seeing as how Batman still had his standoff with Darkseid and they still died in the previous world, it gets addressed.

    Oh, and Orion looks bad ass.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    Funny to see that the moment the New Gods are back, they're already dying off again. I hope, seeing as how Batman still had his standoff with Darkseid and they still died in the previous world, it gets addressed.

    Oh, and Orion looks bad ass.
    What Highfather foresees isn't specifically the death of the New Gods, right? It's the end of time (and thus presumably the death of everyone) .

    I kind of doubt that Azz will be getting into old continuit.y very specifically. If events like the ones you mention come back into continuity, I think it would more likely be in Morrison's multiversity.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    What Highfather foresees isn't specifically the death of the New Gods, right? It's the end of time (and thus presumably the death of everyone) .

    I kind of doubt that Azz will be getting into old continuit.y very specifically. If events like the ones you mention come back into continuity, I think it would more likely be in Morrison's multiversity.

    I agree with this. Excluding the JL appearances (or any other outside her book) I think we're shown that Azzarello is in zero rush to bring-in pre-nu52 aspects into the book. Quite the contrary. He brought in the Amazons because he had to, but he got rid of them really quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I agree with this. Excluding the JL appearances (or any other outside her book) I think we're shown that Azzarello is in zero rush to bring-in pre-nu52 aspects into the book. Quite the contrary. He brought in the Amazons because he had to, but he got rid of them really quickly.
    Which he is not the first to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Which he is not the first to do.
    Yeah but at least in every run we've seen hints or SOME things from the past or re-imagined super-villains. In her current book (other than the Gods) we really haven't seen anything from the past. Granted, I don't know if it belongs in here (yet) but it's been well over a year. He had a chance to at least do the Artemis and Phillipus thing... didn't go there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Yeah but at least in every run we've seen hints or SOME things from the past or re-imagined super-villains. In her current book (other than the Gods) we really haven't seen anything from the past. Granted, I don't know if it belongs in here (yet) but it's been well over a year. He had a chance to at least do the Artemis and Phillipus thing... didn't go there.
    Mind if I ask, but how much of Diana's past remained after COIE? (the last true reboot)

    I am noting this since none of all the other times the Amazons has dissapeared or been separated from Diana over the last 25 years has come hand in hand with a massive overhaul of the mythos.

    That said I agree he could have used Artemis, Io and Philipus, but either he didnt or wasnt allowed to do so (it could be Dessa and Aleka was meant to be them, but wasn't allowed to be). Perhaps if they decide to reintroduce Bana-Mighdall as a separate Amazon city they could be found there?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Brett points out that Athene gets called Justice and therefore might be inclined to punish the Amazons.
    Actually my point was only to say that as "Justice" Athena might likely have a full knowledge of what has been happening.
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    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    The kinda' same thing happened to Teal'q in Stargate.
    Yes, but Teal'q is shown to be remorseful even when he is under Aphophis command. Also he is a slave following orders by someone who holds him in his power - unlike Xena, who makes her own choices which cause others to suffer.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You know, in a way you give Diana way too much credit. She clearly have no idea about how to proceed next concering her sisters. She keeps Hera around on the slight hope she might be somehow useful. Just like we (and probably she) don't know what she will do about them yet (appart from a general "find out their side of the story, then try to redeem them somehow"). It has never been stated she will let them loose, it's just you projecting.
    As for the whole fate thing, well in that case she will never be able to free them and that's the end of it. If she does, then obviously fate wants them to be redeem or to learn from their mistake. Or all this is just crap, and you're just trying to pretend somehow that a supposed "fate" is the same as being judged by his peers on a ground allowing you to defend yourself.
    And that's the problem with this whole argument of yours. You act as if you have facts to back you up, but the best you have is speculations.
    If somebody commits a crime, then they can be locked away. This serves two purposes - one, ideally, to rehabilitate them. Two, to protect society while that occurs. In extreme cases where rehabilitation is deemed to be impossible it is simply a case of protecting the innocent.

    We have some evidence to indicate the Amazons possible misdeeds. Eros and Hephaestus agree on this point. Hermes does not dispute it. All the evidence of the Amazons own feelings towards men supports it.

    My question to myself is - if you are guilty of killing thousands of innocent people, is it unfair that you then have to spend time as a snake/clay statue? It doesnt seem to be. Some would say you are getting of lightly.

    The other problem is that the return of the Amazons curently seems based on Hera getting back her powers. Powers she uses to kill children and laugh about it. And even if Siracca herself is not currently dead, her mother is.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Mind if I ask, but how much of Diana's past remained after COIE? (the last true reboot)

    I am noting this since none of all the other times the Amazons has dissapeared or been separated from Diana over the last 25 years has come hand in hand with a massive overhaul of the mythos.

    That said I agree he could have used Artemis, Io and Philipus, but either he didnt or wasnt allowed to do so (it could be Dessa and Aleka was meant to be them, but wasn't allowed to be). Perhaps if they decide to reintroduce Bana-Mighdall as a separate Amazon city they could be found there?
    There were a FEW things that remained in tact after CoIE. Steve Trevor was in the book at a different capacity. Etta was in the book. If I'm not mistaken, so were a couple of the Amazons' names. In my opinion, as always, I will say that the Perez reboot was handled better in the sense that there was alot explained from the beginning. To me, the coie reboot was an re-imagining of the SAME character. This version seems to me somehow like the Wonder Woman of a different Earth. It's hard to verbalize.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    What Highfather foresees isn't specifically the death of the New Gods, right? It's the end of time (and thus presumably the death of everyone) .

    I kind of doubt that Azz will be getting into old continuit.y very specifically. If events like the ones you mention come back into continuity, I think it would more likely be in Morrison's multiversity.
    In my mind, Gods don't really 'reboot'. Just like before Flashpoint, Darkseid could recall times that he and Batman did battle(like in Rock of Ages) that Bruce himself is not aware of, hence sending him back in time instead of attempting to just kill Batman this time. I'm pretty sure Gods are just Gods and retain the knowledge of everything that has happened beyond reboots and retcons.

    So to that end, these New Gods, while redesigned due to adapting to the times and minds of the people that know them, are aware of what they are and what they've done. I have no doubt the current Darkseid knows what happened to him in Final Crisis, even if Bruce is barely able to recall(Batman Incorporated #0). Also note, Batwoman has evidence of it. In issue zero, we see a panel of the zombie clone Batman that Darkseid created, which killed her in Incorporated volume 1 outside of a Lazarus Pit. The info is here, but its scattered and fractured.

    I'd like to see a sort of "We weren't meant to exist in this world" kind of story with the returning New Gods. I'd like to see Darkseid make reference to it, with maybe only Batman really understanding. Over time, this all has to be clarified and I can't wait.



    And again, I love Orion. His design is genius.

  15. #120
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    If somebody commits a crime, then they can be locked away. This serves two purposes - one, ideally, to rehabilitate them. Two, to protect society while that occurs. In extreme cases where rehabilitation is deemed to be impossible it is simply a case of protecting the innocent.

    We have some evidence to indicate the Amazons possible misdeeds. Eros and Hephaestus agree on this point. Hermes does not dispute it. All the evidence of the Amazons own feelings towards men supports it.

    My question to myself is - if you are guilty of killing thousands of innocent people, is it unfair that you then have to spend time as a snake/clay statue? It doesnt seem to be. Some would say you are getting of lightly.

    The other problem is that the return of the Amazons curently seems based on Hera getting back her powers. Powers she uses to kill children and laugh about it. And even if Siracca herself is not currently dead, her mother is.
    Hard to rehabilitate someone when that someone is changed into a snake. Being a snake tend to limit your attention span.
    The logic you mention is pretty much one that would be aggreed by the Punisher: you're committing a misdeed, so I grab my shotgun and I put an end to your actions. Thing is, Wonder Woman is supposed to be "above" that, to believe even the worst people can be redeemed. Isn't that the whole point of that island where she rehabilitated criminals back then? Isn't that the whole "compassion" angle Marston was going with?
    Nobody's questionning what the Amazons did. What is interesting would be to know the causes to this behaviour. A judgement cannot be passed until one knows the reasons behind your actions, that's why the woman who kills her husband because he was beating her tend to not have it quite as rough as the sociopath who killed somebody for the lols. Same crime, different causes: different punishment. Just like it would not be the same if attacking the boats was their only way to reproduce and continue to go on as a society than if they did it for fun.Just because they're guilty doesn't mean they have no excuses.
    And we have no way of knowing because, well....they're snakes right about now.
    As for Hera....what she's supposed to do? Murder her? The fact she might save her sisters is but one of the reasons she keeps her around.
    "I will not let a friend kill someone else". That's basically what she says to Zola. I fail to say what's non WW like here. Especially when she used to go around redeeming Nazis (and Nazis killed much more than thousands of people in much less than 3 000 years).
    So, nazis deserve compassion, but not her own sisters? I just don't see why.
    It's not even like she was actively trying to restore her powers. So far, she's going after Hermes and the baby. Hera is here just in case.

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