Is Barbera Jim Gordon's neice or daughter?

[Fanofthegoblins]

I am confused. Some people say she is his biological daughter, others say she is his niece. Now, I find out she COULD be his daughter because of a one night stand with his brother's wife. I wish they make up their minds. Normally I like retcons, but this is getting silly.

Edit - she could be adopted

I am used to her being the commissioner's daughter, not some neice because of the 90's cartoon.

[sunofdarkchild]

I am confused. Some people say she is his biological daughter, others say she is his niece. Now, I find out she COULD be his daughter because of a one night stand with his brother's wife. I wish they make up their minds. Normally I like retcons, but this is getting silly.

Edit - she could adopted

I am used to her being the commissioner's daughter, not some neice because of the 90's cartoon.

She was originally his daughter, then was retconned into being his niece who he adopted. That was done either because she made Gordon too old or because it was weird that she would have the exact same name as her mother. In the Nu52 she's his daughter again.

At least she's not Alfred's niece.

[Godlike13]

Originally she was biologically his child, then she wasn't biologically his child, now she is again. She's always been his daughter though, the biology never really mattered.

[kalorama]

She was originally his daughter, then was retconned into being his niece who he adopted. That was done either because she made Gordon too old or because it was weird that she would have the exact same name as her mother. In the Nu52 she's his daughter again.

Actually, it was done because Frank Miller basically forgot to include her in Batman Year One and Denny O'Neil forgot to notice.

[Fanofthegoblins]

She was originally his daughter, then was retconned into being his niece who he adopted. That was done either because she made Gordon too old or because it was weird that she would have the exact same name as her mother. In the Nu52 she's his daughter again.

At least she's not Alfred's niece.

You forgot to mention she was Afred's BLONDE neice who can speak american despite being born in england lol.

[kodave]

Actually, it was done because Frank Miller basically forgot to include her in Batman Year One and Denny O'Neil forgot to notice.

Do you have a source on this? I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just interested on reading more about that omission, if any more information on it exists.

[An Ear In The Fireplace]

Do you have a source on this? I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm just interested on reading more about that omission, if any more information on it exists.

I'm pretty sure it's been alluded to in various interviews and letter columns over the years.

Up until Year One, you had Babs as Jim's daughter. Then Year One comes out and completely ignores her. And then they do an Oops! we forgot about her and they come out with a story that Babs is his niece who he adopted after he got divorced. Kind of a clumsy story, which they didn't need to concoct, if they just explained that Year One was wrong and Jim and his wife already had a daughter, but she didn't appear because she was away at private school. However, O'Neil didn't want to contradict Year One in any way--so he let that story contradict everything else instead.

[shaxper]

I'm pretty sure it's been alluded to in various interviews and letter columns over the years.

Up until Year One, you had Babs as Jim's daughter. Then Year One comes out and completely ignores her. And then they do an Oops! we forgot about her and they come out with a story that Babs is his niece who he adopted after he got divorced.

Secret Origins #20.

The truly weirdest/clumsiest part, though, is that after bothering to do that they retired her seven months later in Batgirl Special #1.

Weirder still, someone decided that wasn't enough, and so they paralyzed her in The Killing Joke literally one week later.


Further support for the idea that Denny O'Neil was a heck of a salesman, but also a terribly sloppy editor.

[Brack360]

I'm pretty sure it's been alluded to in various interviews and letter columns over the years.

Up until Year One, you had Babs as Jim's daughter. Then Year One comes out and completely ignores her. And then they do an Oops! we forgot about her and they come out with a story that Babs is his niece who he adopted after he got divorced. Kind of a clumsy story, which they didn't need to concoct, if they just explained that Year One was wrong and Jim and his wife already had a daughter, but she didn't appear because she was away at private school. However, O'Neil didn't want to contradict Year One in any way--so he let that story contradict everything else instead.

It wasn't so much that they "forgot" about her but rather neither Miller nor O'Neil particularly cared about that character and welcomed an opportunity to erase her from existence. They disliked that version of Batgirl because of her strong association with the old tv show, an incarnation of Batman that they were working hard to move away from and bring back some respectability to Batman in the 80s. Miller was obviously aware of her or he wouldn't have named Gordon's wife Barbara as a nod. To avoid contradicting Year One, it was then retconned that Barbara was Jim's niece whom he subsequently adopted. Personally, I think a much simpler solution would be to explain that the teenage Barbara had remained with relatives in Chicago because she didn't want to transfer to a new school in Gotham, or maybe that she was away at boarding school.

Now, I find out she COULD be his daughter because of a one night stand with his brother's wife.

To clarify, Jim never had an affair with his brother's wife. The story that you are talking about (Batman: Gotham Knights #6) revealed that Jim had dated his future sister-in-law before either of them was married and that she then broke up with Jim and impulsively married his brother, giving birth to Barbara not long afterwards. The story made Jim look like the victim and Thelma and Roger Gordon as the bad guys.

But all of that is moot now because Barbara has once again been retconned as Jim's biological daughter in the current Gail Simone book.

[melkorjunior]

Babs being replaced with "James junior" in Year One is my one knock against that story, and the reason I never personally considered it canon. I also think that if Bruce had saved a baby Babs instead of some kid Miller invented for that story, it would have had more emotional resonance.

[batGRRRl4ever]

Secret Origins #20.

The truly weirdest/clumsiest part, though, is that after bothering to do that they retired her seven months later in Batgirl Special #1.

Weirder still, someone decided that wasn't enough, and so they paralyzed her in The Killing Joke literally one week later.


Further support for the idea that Denny O'Neil was a heck of a salesman, but also a terribly sloppy editor.

The sheer level of the sexist misogyny present at that time of those particular men who wanted to obliterate Batgirl from existence is impressive, in a sick sorta way. First they shred Barbara's origin, then they moved on to retiring her, and then finally and for good measure they made sure that Bab's didn't die as a hero as Batgirl but rather went out as a helpless victim in her civilian identity and then permanently disabled. That was just unnecessary salt for the wound and showing just sexist hate for that character, IMO.

And we fans of Batgirl may have had to wait over 2X decades for all that misogyny to get undone, but undone it has been! So take THIS image O'Neal and realize you FAILED, ha:



Bab's got a "redo" moment of TKJ from a writer that cares about her, and she showed what she's capable of!

Also more and completely on track to this thread, I'm just so glad that niece nonsense is finally done away with.

[An Ear In The Fireplace]

It would be okay if they wanted to get rid of Batgirl from continuity and Year One was written to do that. But if they made that decision, they clearly didn't stick with it long, because they then did that origin story to still make Batgirl part of continuity and related to Commissioner Gordon--if only for the point of letting The Killing Joke be in continuity. It seems like O'Neil was trying to serve two masters--Miller and Moore--and clumsily careening between both.

[Van Cleaf]

I heard it differently. According to John Byrne one of the things going to happen in "Year One" was that all would have thought that the baby is a boy just to be revealed as a girl - Barbara Gordon. But then Frank Miller and Denny O'Nel realized that this would make Batman really really old in the "present day" timeline.

[Aquacatlungfish]

The sheer level of the sexist misogyny present at that time of those particular men who wanted to obliterate Batgirl from existence is impressive, in a sick sorta way. First they shred Barbara's origin, then they moved on to retiring her, and then finally and for good measure they made sure that Bab's didn't die as a hero as Batgirl but rather went out as a helpless victim in her civilian identity and then permanently disabled. That was just unnecessary salt for the wound and showing just sexist hate for that character, IMO.

And we fans of Batgirl may have had to wait over 2X decades for all that misogyny to get undone, but undone it has been! So take THIS image O'Neal and realize you FAILED, ha:



Bab's got a "redo" moment of TKJ from a writer that cares about her, and she showed what she's capable of!

Also more and completely on track to this thread, I'm just so glad that niece nonsense is finally done away with.

O'Neal failed to have T&A shots in more of his comics? Honestly while I don't mind Babs back as Batgirl saying that Oracle was mistreating the character is simply untrue. That was when she was most popular amongst fans and when she was one of DC's best female characters and one of their few disabled but still able to do superheroing despite disabilities. I would also point out that your claims of sexism towards Barbara are 10X stronger in the cases of Cass and Steph.

[Aquacatlungfish]

Having it be Babs in Year One would make Batman way to old. You could say pre Flashpoint continuity, Batman was old because of James Jr (I wish DC would stop with this 5 year timeline as it takes away the mystery and possibilities in stories).