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  1. #16
    Senior Member rasx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugsySig View Post
    While the color of their skin was not "diverse", the original team had a member who was overweight and a member who was illiterate (possibly learning disabled). Those are also underrepresented groups in comics.

    And VALIANT in general has always been far more diverse, espescially when it comes to Asian characters (Harada, Rai, Dr. Mirage, etc). Even now Shadowman has a mostly African-American cast and Livewire has been reimagined as African-American as well in Harbinger.

    The female ranks are also quickly filling up with two main females in Bloodshot, Kris, Zeph and Flamingo in Harbinger, Mary-Maria in A&A and the new Geomancer.
    I really do like what VALIANT is doing so far, especially with female characters. But Harbinger still looks a little awkward.
    Also is that connected cover a tribute to Jim Lee's famous X-Men cover.
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  2. #17
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasx View Post
    I really do like what VALIANT is doing so far, especially with female characters. But Harbinger still looks a little awkward.
    Also is that connected cover a tribute to Jim Lee's famous X-Men cover.
    Well the roster is what it is given that the book is a reimagining of the original from 20 years ago. You never know what new characters could join the cast, but I don't like when character's races are changed just for the sake of an appearance of diversity. Ultimate Nick Fury, for example.

    Not sure if it is an homage cover, but good call on the similarities.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasx View Post
    I really do like what VALIANT is doing so far, especially with female characters. But Harbinger still looks a little awkward.
    Also is that connected cover a tribute to Jim Lee's famous X-Men cover.
    It's looking up now that Kris is practically leading them. So it'll be a white male female leader, an overweight female flier, another female firestarter (though is Flamingo white?), a learning-disabled white male brick and a possibly gay white male powerhouse/all-rounder (because Peter was always meant to be gay originally, but it was never shown). They do come out looking a bit white, and I think they could have just changed that, but it's an interestingly diverse group. Several of those are extremely rare in comics.

    On specific topic, I didn't love the art on six, so I'm happy it's changing. They're lucky it was the Renegade arc, because I can see how each issue focusing on a new character on the team would make the art changes less jarring overall.
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  4. #19
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Not a bit White absolutely white especially when the other side looks pretty darn diverse which as I said before always scares me when I see the All White Team of Heroes fighting the Evil Minority Villains. I am not saying minorities all need to be heroes but a few is not to much to ask.

    Yeah Livewire got reimagined and seeing an overweight female hero is nice treat but Livewire can be changed I don't see why one or two on the "Hero Side" cannot be changed either.
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  5. #20
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    Not a bit White absolutely white especially when the other side looks pretty darn diverse which as I said before always scares me when I see the All White Team of Heroes fighting the Evil Minority Villains. I am not saying minorities all need to be heroes but a few is not to much to ask.

    Yeah Livewire got reimagined and seeing an overweight female hero is nice treat but Livewire can be changed I don't see why one or two on the "Hero Side" cannot be changed either.
    So the bank-robbing, junkie, rapists are the good guys and the philanthropic, educational and training institution are the bad guys? Just throwing that out there.
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  6. #21
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Well I assume Peter is suppose to be the "Hero" of this tale with Harada as the "Villian." Am I wrong? Generally, the main character's side are the guys your suppose to be rooting for while the other side is who your suppose to be rooting against.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugsySig View Post
    So the bank-robbing, junkie, rapists are the good guys and the philanthropic, educational and training institution are the bad guys? Just throwing that out there.
    That's not quite fair. The most powerful man in the world wants to control all of humanity and, as near as I can figure, remove any semblance of self-determination from the "norms" is probably not the guy I want to root for. The young, mentally-damaged people who are making mistakes but still trying to do the right thing (while regretting the mistakes they make) and are opposing the threat of a single man controlling everything (economy, defense, etc). Not to mention that the philanthropic, educational, and training institution murders 25% of the people it attempts to "activate."
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  8. #23
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    That's not quite fair. The most powerful man in the world wants to control all of humanity and, as near as I can figure, remove any semblance of self-determination from the "norms" is probably not the guy I want to root for. The young, mentally-damaged people who are making mistakes but still trying to do the right thing (while regretting the mistakes they make) and are opposing the threat of a single man controlling everything (economy, defense, etc). Not to mention that the philanthropic, educational, and training institution murders 25% of the people it attempts to "activate."
    Well if you want to bring "details" into this...lol...just like the original there are a lot of grey areas here. I just wanted to make the point that just because these characters are White does not make them "heroes" who are to be looked up to. And just because the "bad guys" are more ethnic does not make them evil. Pete may be the protagonist and Harada the antagonist, but we're not talking Steve Rogers and the Mandarin here.
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  9. #24
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugsySig View Post
    Pete may be the protagonist and Harada the antagonist, but we're not talking Steve Rogers and the Mandarin here.
    Perhaps, but the distinction between them is, I would say, greater than between Punisher and Kingpin.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Perhaps, but the distinction between them is, I would say, greater than between Punisher and Kingpin.
    I don't know... in your example, I don't see many people not taking the Punisher's side. Whereas in Harbinger, it's an ensemble cast where nobody (except probably Faith) comes off looking very heroic. Even Kris was sounding a little power-drunk at the end there in issue 6. Which is great, because it makes the whole world of the book far more interesting. I mean, I love good old superhero action as much as the next guy, but I REALLY love complex character dynamics and moral shades of grey.

    (Which has pleasingly been a prominent part of the Valiant approach.)
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  11. #26
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter_peterson View Post
    I don't know... in your example, I don't see many people not taking the Punisher's side. Whereas in Harbinger, it's an ensemble cast where nobody (except probably Faith) comes off looking very heroic.
    I think anyone would be hard pressed to suggest that Punisher comes off looking heroic in most cases, even if they take his side.. I'm saying the moral ambiguity between Punisher and Kingpin is much more narrow than between the Renegades and Harada Corp. I stand by that.

    Definitely agree that it is a standout hallmark of Valiant titles that I very much appreciate. It has spoiled my enjoyment of most other publishers though. :)
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  12. #27
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    I think anyone would be hard pressed to suggest that Punisher comes off looking heroic in most cases, even if they take his side.. I'm saying the moral ambiguity between Punisher and Kingpin is much more narrow than between the Renegades and Harada Corp. I stand by that.

    Definitely agree that it is a standout hallmark of Valiant titles that I very much appreciate. It has spoiled my enjoyment of most other publishers though. :)
    I'll amicably disagree about the Punisher, who I find is usually quite unambiguously positioned as the good guy in most stories. The deepest the moral questions usually go is "is it all right to kill people at all" as opposed to accepting that as the character's premise and asking "when is it okay to kill and when is it not?" He largely is mowing down hardened criminals, corrupt cops and the like. Which is fine, but a little unambiguous for my liking. In terms of concept, I absolutely agree with you that he's not a true hero, but it rarely comes across that way in his stories. (Interestingly, even when he guest stars in superhero books, he's usually presented as right, but inexcusable in his methods. Which means that he's still an infallible judge of others morality...) But that's a storytelling/marketing concern and off-topic here. :)

    In regard to the Valiant books, Harbinger is the winner in the shades-of-grey competition, with XO next, probably. The others all have complex moral stuff going on, but it's less overt. I mean, Project Rising Spirit has legitimate reasons for doing the terrible things they do, and Harada's organization is proof of that. But Bloodshot is equally (arguably more... I'd say more) justified in seeking revenge and answers, just as PRS should answer publicly for all the times they've crossed the line as, in the grey goo incident. It's all so awesome!
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  13. #28
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Well for me it comes down to my basic difficulty with the concept of "anti-hero." To me, the term for a person who employs the tactics of villains to fight crime is, properly, "CRIMINAL." It's a great disservice to mainstream superheroes that there aren't stories bringing these guys down, but that's the trend of what passes for dark, gritty comics these days.

    It's an approach Valiant seems to be avoiding so far.
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  14. #29
    Verily VALIANT! BugsySig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Well for me it comes down to my basic difficulty with the concept of "anti-hero." To me, the term for a person who employs the tactics of villains to fight crime is, properly, "CRIMINAL." It's a great disservice to mainstream superheroes that there aren't stories bringing these guys down, but that's the trend of what passes for dark, gritty comics these days.

    It's an approach Valiant seems to be avoiding so far.
    I think VALIANT understands, and always has, that if people did have superpowers there would be very few Faiths and Archers in the world and a lot more Petes and Haradas.
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