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  1. #61
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    He seems to largely ignore those writers.
    Even if, in the case of Aquaman and Green Lantern, he is those writers.

    Hence my theory that Jim Lee is responsible for huge parts of the story and characterisation.
    Yep. Lee's "cool" fingerprints are all over this series and it shows. Granted Johns doesn't have the best history of splash pages (ooh look Batman is punching Gordon, start caring!) but the splash pages of JL are ridiculous. There's one for every thing they do no matter how ding insignificant it is just for the sake of having him draw it. Lee was determined to make JL style over substance and it make it something put of the 90s. SMWW was definitely Lee's idea and his plan to make Superman "badass" by giving him a "cool" new look with a annoying as hell collar, quiting the Daily Planet and getting rid of his supporting cast save for backup "sexy" girlfriend (for when WW doesn't work out), getting rid of that "lame" wife and replacing her with Wonder Woman, the ultimate superhero sex symbol and giving him another new costume that's black because black is "cool". Lee states this is to make him "relevant" again. Ugh.

  2. #62
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    Yep. Lee's "cool" fingerprints are all over this series and it shows. Granted Johns doesn't have the best history of splash pages (ooh look Batman is punching Gordon, start caring!) but the splash pages of JL are ridiculous. There's one for every thing they do no matter how ding insignificant it is just for the sake of having him draw it. Lee was determined to make JL style over substance and it make it something put of the 90s. SMWW was definitely Lee's idea and his plan to make Superman "badass" by giving him a "cool" new look with a annoying as hell collar, quiting the Daily Planet and getting rid of his supporting cast save for backup "sexy" girlfriend (for when WW doesn't work out), getting rid of that "lame" wife and replacing her with Wonder Woman, the ultimate superhero sex symbol and giving him another new costume that's black because black is "cool". Lee states this is to make him "relevant" again. Ugh.

    Huh....yeah, quitting the Planet was apparently Lobdell's idea, I'm not even sure they asked Johns' permission before doing it (considering how he didn't seem to be aware Lois wasn't working in the Planet anymore).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  3. #63
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    Yep. Lee's "cool" fingerprints are all over this series and it shows. Granted Johns doesn't have the best history of splash pages (ooh look Batman is punching Gordon, start caring!) but the splash pages of JL are ridiculous. There's one for every thing they do no matter how ding insignificant it is just for the sake of having him draw it. Lee was determined to make JL style over substance and it make it something put of the 90s. SMWW was definitely Lee's idea and his plan to make Superman "badass" by giving him a "cool" new look with a annoying as hell collar, quiting the Daily Planet and getting rid of his supporting cast save for backup "sexy" girlfriend (for when WW doesn't work out), getting rid of that "lame" wife and replacing her with Wonder Woman, the ultimate superhero sex symbol and giving him another new costume that's black because black is "cool". Lee states this is to make him "relevant" again. Ugh.
    Interesting how much more divergent opinion is on JL than I had thought.

    Comic artists talking about their latest projects are a bit like the actors who play Bond Girls. Just once you would like one of those ladies to step up and say "Yeah, I am there for my character to look pretty and give 007 someone to have sex with." In the same way you want the writers and artists to just say "Yeah, I wanna draw him in black because I can and it might make us more money for a while."
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Interesting how much more divergent opinion is on JL than I had thought.

    Comic artists talking about their latest projects are a bit like the actors who play Bond Girls. Just once you would like one of those ladies to step up and say "Yeah, I am there for my character to look pretty and give 007 someone to have sex with." In the same way you want the writers and artists to just say "Yeah, I wanna draw him in black because I can and it might make us more money for a while."
    Not when said artist is also co-publisher of DC Comics.
    And not when Jon Rozum quit Static Shock because his editor inisted on him having as little input as possible on the book and mostly let the artist write it.
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  5. #65
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Huh....yeah, quitting the Planet was apparently Lobdell's idea, I'm not even sure they asked Johns' permission before doing it (considering how he didn't seem to be aware Lois wasn't working in the Planet anymore).
    To be fair I am lumping alot of Superman New 52 myths with Lee and Lodbell and Daniels might have come up with the black costume but Lee should probably have denied them and instead just let it happen. Lee's a great artist but he starts way to many projects only to leave them hanging or cancelled and an awful publisher and most of his new costumes suck.

  6. #66
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    L
    To be fair I am lumping alot of Superman New 52 myths with Lee and Lodbell and Daniels might have come up with the black costume but Lee should probably have denied them and instead just let it happen. Lee's a great artist but he starts way to many projects only to leave them hanging or cancelled and an awful publisher and most of his new costumes suck.
    So you are lumping a lot of Superman new 52 myths with a guy that may have nothing to do with it?
    It's obvious by the reading of JL that neither Johns or Lee have the slightest idea what's going on on the Superman book.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    So you are lumping a lot of Superman new 52 myths with a guy that may have nothing to do with it?
    It's obvious by the reading of JL that neither Johns or Lee have the slightest idea what's going on on the Superman book.
    I was mainly going on a rant about the New 52 changes trying to make him "cooler" but Lee certainly is at the forefront of the changes. People always blame Didio when Lee has the same amount of power and is no where near as good as he is. I guess it's because Didio makes more appearances and is a crappy writer and Lee is a great artist.

  8. #68
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    DiDio is an editor in the way Lee is an artist or Johns a writer.

  9. #69
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    I was mainly going on a rant about the New 52 changes trying to make him "cooler" but Lee certainly is at the forefront of the changes. People always blame Didio when Lee has the same amount of power and is no where near as good as he is. I guess it's because Didio makes more appearances and is a crappy writer and Lee is a great artist.
    That doesn't mean Lee is connected to everything that has changed with Superman. The only one we know he is directly connected to is the costume. The rest, the T shirt period, the fact the Planet has been bought by Galaxy, the fact Clark has quit the Planet.... if he has ever known about it, he sure doesn't show it in the JL comic (he even portrayed Lois as a newspaper reporter, while she has been a TV producer since issue 1 of Superman).
    Not to mention the fact that I find the idea of Geoff Johns (also important DC executive and biggest star of the writing crew) of all people not having his say about the writing to be slightly ridiculous (especially considering it wouldn't be the first time he writes a stupid comic).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  10. #70
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    Gg
    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    That doesn't mean Lee is connected to everything that has changed with Superman. The only one we know he is directly connected to is the costume. The rest, the T shirt period, the fact the Planet has been bought by Galaxy, the fact Clark has quit the Planet.... if he has ever known about it, he sure doesn't show it in the JL comic (he even portrayed Lois as a newspaper reporter, while she has been a TV producer since issue 1 of Superman).
    Not to mention the fact that I find the idea of Geoff Johns (also important DC executive and biggest star of the writing crew) of all people not having his say about the writing to be slightly ridiculous (especially considering it wouldn't be the first time he writes a stupid comic).
    Does you seriously think that SMWW was John's idea? The slash pages were either Lee's or Johns being blinded by having him do art.

  11. #71
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    Gg
    Does you seriously think that SMWW was John's idea? The slash pages were either Lee's or Johns being blinded by having him do art.
    I don't have any idea and honestly, I just don't care. I don't mind a Superman/Wonder Woman pairing. We all know it's going to last 2 years top, so I don't see what's the big deal is.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    He seems to largely ignore those writers.
    Even if, in the case of Aquaman and Green Lantern, he is those writers.

    Hence my theory that Jim Lee is responsible for huge parts of the story and characterisation.
    I don't see GL and Aquaman's JL appearances being that jarring. Aquaman in his own series verges towards self-centredness and arrogance (e.g. the arc with the Others) and Johns has historically written Hal as the impulsive jock who regularly punches his superior officers. He regards the Corps as his team so it's not a surprise he treats the League meet-ups less than seriously.

    Cyborg's not appearing elsewhere, Flash seems fairly normal and Batman's portrayed as the brains of the team. Superman's rather aloof but that was pretty well-explained by Action Comics #10 where it's shown he sees the League as a club that only needs him to punch the occasional space monster and which doesn't have much sympathy for his activism. Wonder Woman's about the one off-putting exception.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Azzarello and Johns are both very different writers, and have different takes on WW: clearly in my mind Azz is writing WW, Johns is writing WW with impulse control issues. Anyway, sales are king. Both books are selling, which is all that matters to DC. A book will sell one day, and won't sell the next. So since the books are selling, nothing will change. I don't think there are many folks who buy both. I certainly don't. JL sucks. I dropped it. I'll flip through it, and read reviews about it to keep up on the DCU but not waste my hard earned cash on it. Wonder Woman I enjoy, and there you have it.

  14. #74

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    Possibly they are different because Johns only seems capable of writing a few characters well, which Wonder Woman and Batman are not among.
    Currently Reading: Hellboy, B.P.R.D., Wonder Woman, Batman, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel & Faith, The Sixth Gun, Fatale, Fables, Sweet Tooth, Saga, Glory, Batman Inc.

  15. #75
    Wallace Likes It That Way Deus ex Chris's Avatar
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    They are so different because Johns is clueless when it comes to Wonder Woman. His version is a rabid dog who needs to be leashed. It's unfortunate because that's not a version of the character I have interest in. The version I prefer is smarter and much more restrained.

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