The Amazing Spider-man #698 Spoiler thread (SPOILERS: YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!)

[David Walton]

Considering what Marvel allowed with Brand New Day I wouldn't be surprised by anything. They seem to love to take chances with this character.

BND was actually pretty damned tame...but Slott's run has been a breath of fresh air.

[Manphibian]

I liked the issue, I'll stick around and see where this goes.

I asked this over at BC but I'll ask it here too. So if Doc-Spidey sleeps with Mary Jane will that be considered rape? or will they use the "Chameleon Kissing" excuse after the fact?

[0bsessions]

Silver Sable is alive and knows what happened. Rhino knew the plan and informed her, I think Rhino may be on the side of the angles on this one. Silver wanted Spock to think she was dead.

Ock was talking about a secret plan to Rhino, something that led a lot of people to believe that, in the end, Ock would end up switching bodies with Rhino somehow.

Testament to the fact the hints have been there for ages if people were drawing similar conclusions during EotE.

I'm on the side that thinks Peter will return in another body and he will end up as SSM.

[Majinoaw]

Considering what Marvel allowed with Brand New Day I wouldn't be surprised by anything. They seem to love to take chances with this character.

Marvel is taking chances with everything now. Have you all seen how Cyclops is now portrayed?

Silver Sable is alive and knows what happened. Rhino knew the plan and informed her, I think Rhino may be on the side of the angles on this one. Silver wanted Spock to think she was dead.

Yup. This is it. Delete this because this spoils upcoming storylines.

Eh, it all depends on how next chapter rolls and if it looks like Peter has a chance to ever get his body back. I personally have no interest in seeing doctor Octopus live his life, and Peter really doesn't deserve to die in such an undignified way. If he actually does die this way and Doc Ock is the new spider-man, I want nothing to do with Superior. I don't read spider-man for a dark story where evil ultimately triumphs.

Undignified is the way to go in Marvel now. Just read Uncanny Avengers 1. Did you see what they did to Xavier. That's just shameful and disgusting. But hey Marvel will do that to you.

[Hi-Fi]

MJ is already figuring it out.

[nosocialize100]

Marvel is taking chances with everything now. Have you all seen how Cyclops is now portrayed?

That's true, but Spidey has been a punching bag for new stories like this one for awhile now no?

[Doctuh]

Yup. This is it. Delete this because this spoils upcoming storylines.

No, this spoils upcoming storylines, I'm making guesses here.

[Drewman]

So I guess Superior Spider-Man will be Ock and Pete's mind in one, thus making him superior.

[nosocialize100]

So I guess Superior Spider-Man will be Ock and Pete's mind in one, thus making him superior.

Now that's a crazy idea. It just might work!

[David Walton]

So I guess Superior Spider-Man will be Ock and Pete's mind in one, thus making him superior.

That would certainly fit the 'dark and weird' bill!

[Meehaul]

For all the folks disappointed in the "reveal," just remember that what's important is the execution of the story. Sure, plenty of stories have been told about the hero and villain switching bodies, but what remains interesting is the way the tale is told and what that reveals about the hero and villain. We've had untold romance and death stories too, but they never get old or repetitive if they are told in an interesting way. What makes Spidey work for me is that its ultimately a character study about a kid who gets super powers and how he learns to become responsible. The stories are most interesting to me when they are character studies--and least interesting when they're just chock full o' fights and heroes and silliness. I thought MJ took away from the stories--it was detrimental to the character to have Pete married to an actress/model/hottie. I think having Pete work at Horizon is a mistake as well. He's just another Tony Stark in that world. To me, the biggest criticism I have with Slott's run is that too much of it has been either trivial or a means of larding up guest stars.

Dan's been at his best, imho, when he sticks to the characterizations of Pete and the quiet stories. His "should we do it" with Carlie was teriffic. A small, very believable exchange between two shy, imperfect characters. He nailed it. Ditto for the silent story with Marcos Martin--that was the best mainstream comic issue I've read in at least a decade. Horizon Labs, constant guest stars, all the silly super science, those are low points for me. They take away from what makes the character so awesome.

If Slott can use this twist to tell a Peter Parker story, to explore his life beyond Horizon and dating models, then he will have pulled off something special in my view. This could be the set up to a truly interesting arc, only time will tell. I have faith Slott can do it. He just needs to draw more from his own life and less from his comic book influences. I think if he is able to do that, he'll have written one of the finest Spidey arcs ever and will finally have his signature story.

[LooneyKoala]

I really am thinking this could get solved within the next two issues, but Peter may be in a completely different body. Which would explain the need for claws to climb walls and all that, as the new body wouldn't have powers, but knowing Peter that wouldn't stop him being Spidey.

[Beast]

That's true, but Spidey has been a punching bag for new stories like this one for awhile now no?

Spidey's been a punching bag in comics since pretty much the beginning. That's always been his role.

[stillanerd]

Ha! I hadn't thought about that, but yeah...given the solicits for ASM 699, Pete could expose his secret identity to the world to stop Doc Ock.

That would be a brilliant twist...though it would also put Pete's family in danger, so I don't know!

Well, certainly if you read this part of Amazing Spider-Man #699 and given what we know now, it gives a whole new twisted meaning:

Doctor Octopus has hours left to live. He knows Peter Parker’s secret. He has no master plan—all he wants is vengeance. Which members of Spider-Man’s rogues gallery will heed Ock’s call to arms?

MJ is already figuring it out.

Or at least she's starting to get suspicious what with "Peter" wearing a suit and suddenly deciding they should get back together out of the blue.

So I guess Superior Spider-Man will be Ock and Pete's mind in one, thus making him superior.

Now that's a crazy idea. It just might work!

That would certainly fit the 'dark and weird' bill!

And if that did happen, it would mean that the Superior Spider-Man is someone we have seen before (Peter Parker and Doc Ock) while also not being Peter Parker either because merging the personalities of Peter and Doc Ock together would essentially mean he's a completely new person. Sort of like what happened to many characters in Dragonball Z.

[HopeLantern]

SPOILERS

So, after the brouhaha of leaked spoilers, anger, shock, and disbelief, not to mention blame to pass around, we've come to this spoiler and discussion of Amazing Spider-Man #698 for the CBR Forums. Before we proceed, however…

To the American Spider-fans, I hope you all have a safe Thanksgiving travel today. I know I experienced it going back to Los Angeles from San Diego on our 2002 vacation. Now, will you actually have something to be thankful for by way of Slott's story? After reading it, will you still be able to observe the holiday as before? Or will it be bad enough to totally ruin the spirit of the day, and not just break the Internet in half.

Second, if you're one of those who deliberately viewed the revelation page without reading first the lead-up, well, you're missing out on a lot. Sure, now you know what happened, but the set-up for that scene only makes it that much more powerful, and rivetting, you'll be forced to go back and re-read the whole comic. And look for clues. I did.

spoilers:

At the Raft, security responds to an alarm at the cell block holding Smythe, Morbius, Connor, and Octavius. Ock's docs sounded it off because he started mumbling after weeks of silece. The squad leader leans in close enough to hear him say "Peter Parker". Climbing up the pier overviewing the Raft, the golden octobot repeats the name. We are treated to Peter as Spidey revelling in the day that he feels will be the best one. We read his inner monologue, saying he should enjoy being Spidey as he's earned it, with all of NY to play in. A small-time robbery interrupts his reverie and he quickly dispatches the two-bit baddie with uncharacteristic lack of snappy patter. He even takes off and ignores the policewoman's request that he stop by the station to fill out whatever needed to be filled out. Back at his apartment he takes stock of his good fortune: a pad in a swanky NY neighborhood, his handsome face (slightly marred by the hobgblin war), and play his messages. Three catch his attention: 1. MJ asking him to visit her club (Pete wishing they'd be together); 2. Jay reminding him of his hospital visit promise (calling his aunt a sweet dear); 3. Max notifying him of his due evalutation at Horizon (grateful for his job). Pete casually and confidently tells Max he'll surpass himself and go beyond his previous inventions. In his lab he remembers how he first invented his web-fluid, but he also vows never to let time and opportunity pass him by, so he'll become a better scientist… and a better man. Dressed to a T after work, he visits MJ and tells her he wants them to take things to the next level, much to her surprise. But she tells him her promise to see May and Jay and invites him to join her. As she gets her coat, he unexpectedly flirts by winking at two of the female customers. At May's physio rehab, a grateful Jay beams at Pete's and MJ's presence, when Pete gets an Avengers alert to go to the Raft. Jay takes umbrage at his sudden departure despite MJ covering for him and May overlooking it over her thrill at seeing Pete and MJ closer again and possibly giving her grandkids. Spidey still a bit disbelieving about his being an Avenger, and when he reaches the Raft Cap (with Wolverine, Hakweye, and Spider-Woman alongside) tells him Ock's asking for him. And not Spider-Man. Peter Parker. Requesting privacy, he faces Ock in his cell.

end of spoilers
And this is where we have the scene that caused and continues to cause an uproar on the Net. Let me advice you, when you read it again, go through each and every phrase and word carefully. Now, how do you read it?
spoilers:

Spidey asks Ock what he wants to tell him and he replied "Peter Parker". Spidey unmasks, "Yes, I'm Peter Parker," but Ock protests no it's him (Ock). And, sending chills down my spine as I read in horror, Peter calls Ock as Spider-Man and tells him that the mind in Peter's body now has everything of Peter's life including his memories; while the mind in Ock's body now has to accept his identity and body as Otto Octavius, with time running out in his battered body. He gloats that he will not reveal how he pulled it off. Let's go through what just happened. Octavius' mind is now, apparently, in Parker's body and also copied his memories. Parker's mind is now in Octavius' body, which suddenly goes into cardiac arrest. The doctors rush in to rescuscitate him as Spidey returns to his teammates. He tells Cap Ock probably couldn't handle Spidey sending him off and reassures him it doesn't bother him. In fact, in the last panel, he says he better things to do. And behind Spider-Man, the background is a watermarked Doctor Octopus.

end of spoilers

My reaction was just visceral: I cupped my hands to my mouth going "Oh My God. He (Slott) didn't do it." But he did. And I was absolutely stunned. And horrified.

Yes. Horrified.

I think the last time I had this kind of reaction was almost two years ago when Johnny Storm (disconcertingly Peter Parker's best superhero friend) died in Fantastic Four #587, a similarly hyped, anticipated, and hyped issue. Back then what added to the horror for me was the way Johnny appeared to die; it seemed out-there inhumane and undignified being dog-piled by insectoid aliens with the body being violated. Here, the difference is

spoilers:

it's the mind that is seemingly violated as Peter's is now in the dying body of his enemy. The indignity shocked my sensibilities. He did not deserve it.

end of spoilers
I re-read the book, looking for when and how exactly "it" happened. That was when it hit me:
spoilers:

Ock's been in Peter's body and posing as Spider-Man the entire issue, from the panel where he's swinging through. That inner monologue, that was Ock's. And all of a sudden it made sense. Ock was experiecing for the first time what it was like to be in a young, strong, handsome body able to do all the stuff Spidey did. His petulance towards the policewoman. Calling May a dear sweet woman (hearkening to their almost wedding). Flirting with the gals at MJ's club. The switch happened off-panel, probably just before the alarm sounded off in the Raft. And the golden octobot? Did it just finish its mission of doing the mind-switch. The revelation shook me up. Slott got us from page 1. I knew from all the feel-good vibes of the earlier pages that something terrible was going to upend it all, as a plot device, but I didn't expect this. Now after more than 24 hours reading it, I'm still trying to hold out hope. And what I've come up was this. Read that scene again. Especially this line, verbatim. Spider-Man's body: "And like a good magician, I shall not reveal my secrets. You will die, never knowing how I performed my greatest trick." When I read that again, I thought of another interpretation: Ock did NOT switch minds with Peter; but rather, he imprinted his memories on Peter's mind like how Doctor Doom imprinted Krsitoff Vernard with his memories to make him think he is Doom. So Peter's mind is still in his rightful body, but with Ock's mind overlain as well. I took note of the fact that Ock referred to himself as a magician pulling a trick, and like stage magicians the trick is only an illusion, much like Eastern Europe including Symkaria burning in Ends of the Earth was his illusion. But then I wondered what Ock would get out of Peter becoming him when his real mind would still be in his own body, but somehow imprinted with Peter's memories to make it seem he's Peter to complete the illusion. So if indeed it was a true mind switch, then we have to go find out what tech it was that Ock used to pull it off. Because as far as I know, he doesn't appear to have that kind of technology himself. So did he filch such tech from Richards, Stark, or Pym?

end of spoilers
Give Slott credit for the audacity to pull off what he did. And if this is any indication, we'll be hunting our back issues for clues.

My friend, you give the absolute best spoiler summaries!!!

Not to be immature, but as huge as this is, though, what horrifies me the most? spoilers:

The thought that at some point Doc Ock might actually... you know what... with Mary Jane Watson one day. Life is so unfair, talk about spitting in the face of the legacy of Peter Parker

end of spoilers.