Nightwing #14 Preview/Discussion

[Seattle Freeze]

^ I got to agree with you to at least some degree. I mean, how did he not know the boat was a decoy when it was on a suicide-collision course? That moment was suposed to be suspenseful to readers but if we could tell ahead of time that she wasn't going to be on the boat, how did Nightwing not even suspect as much?

[Godlike13]

Because apparently according to these two issues he's Gotham's resident dunce.

[colossus34]

Are you new to comics? The hero always loses or at least stalemates the first encounter(which he already did as Robin). There's no story to tell when the hero just wins automatically.

Im very much familiar with comics. Are you familiar with Nightwing at all? I suggest you read back his 150+ earlier stories to see most the complaints fans have been having about the character has returned since the DCNu. A real shame his Morrison Batman competence has all but been erased. He's back to being the 2nd only to batman character that writers use to prop up the flavor of the month villian, anti hero or new hero. Conner Hawke, remember him? All but forgotten these days, Chuck Dixon used an entire arc in Nightwing to show how he was the the most deadly fighter in the world and showed Grayson to be dolt in the process. Same thing happened with Devin's run and Tarantula, then Jason Todd with One Year Later and then Marv Wolfman came back and you had it again with Vigilante. Its a recurring theme in every Nightwing series it seems. No one wants to write him as the competent hero of his own book.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Im very much familiar with comics. Are you familiar with Nightwing at all? I suggest you read back his 150+ earlier stories to see most the complaints fans have been having about the character has returned since the DCNu. A real shame his Morrison Batman competence has all but been erased. He's back to being the 2nd only to batman character that writers use to prop up the flavor of the month villian, anti hero or new hero. Conner Hawke, remember him? All but forgotten these days, Chuck Dixon used an entire arc in Nightwing to show how he was the the most deadly fighter in the world and showed Grayson to be dolt in the process. Same thing happened with Devin's run and Tarantula, then Jason Todd with One Year Later and then Marv Wolfman came back and you had it again with Vigilante. Its a recurring theme in every Nightwing series it seems. No one wants to write him as the competent hero of his own book.

I really just wish that writers would focus on playing up his acrobatics when it comes to combat.

Like I'm okay with someone like Shiva taking Dick down 9.5/10 once she gets into close combat with him. I'm okay with Dick acknowledging that fact. However, Dick's strategy should then be "avoid close combat with a side of bat toys + taunting to get her to screw up", not "try to fight her up close anyway".

Dick is supposed to be the greatest acrobat in the world. That should also mean he is the champ when it comes to playing keep away.

[Seattle Freeze]

I really just wish that writers would focus on playing up his acrobatics when it comes to combat.

If the writers haven't the artists have. The art always shows frames depicting Nightwing jumping around in complex moves. In reading Nightwing, I have no doubt in his acrobatic skills.

[Whip Whirlwind]

If the writers haven't the artists have. The art always shows frames depicting Nightwing jumping around in complex moves. In reading Nightwing, I have no doubt in his acrobatic skills.

When it come to moving or taking out mooks/monsters yeah, but we rarely see it in 1 vs. 1 fights with skilled martial artists.There have been several times in the past where Dick was taking on someone who was clearly superior to him in h2h fighting (whether they should have been or not), and he just fights them directly and loses. When instead he could keep his distance with his acrobatics while using his own long range attacks or waiting for an opening and then rapidly closing the distance.

Basically, Dick should never want to fight Shiva directly, and Shiva should never/rarely be able to catch Dick if he doesn't want to be caught. So he should do that and then mock her incessantly (as she's a very prideful character and he's very good at mocking people) to try and get her to slip up.

[DrSimonHurt]

Im very much familiar with comics. Are you familiar with Nightwing at all? I suggest you read back his 150+ earlier stories to see most the complaints fans have been having about the character has returned since the DCNu. A real shame his Morrison Batman competence has all but been erased. He's back to being the 2nd only to batman character that writers use to prop up the flavor of the month villian, anti hero or new hero. Conner Hawke, remember him? All but forgotten these days, Chuck Dixon used an entire arc in Nightwing to show how he was the the most deadly fighter in the world and showed Grayson to be dolt in the process. Same thing happened with Devin's run and Tarantula, then Jason Todd with One Year Later and then Marv Wolfman came back and you had it again with Vigilante. Its a recurring theme in every Nightwing series it seems. No one wants to write him as the competent hero of his own book.

I'm a Green Arrow fan. I know a few things about disappointing character direction.

On the other hand, I don't believe Dick Grayson should ever be described as a deadly warrior.

[sidekick77]

When it come to moving or taking out mooks/monsters yeah, but we rarely see it in 1 vs. 1 fights with skilled martial artists.There have been several times in the past where Dick was taking on someone who was clearly superior to him in h2h fighting (whether they should have been or not), and he just fights them directly and loses. When instead he could keep his distance with his acrobatics while using his own long range attacks or waiting for an opening and then rapidly closing the distance.

Basically, Dick should never want to fight Shiva directly, and Shiva should never/rarely be able to catch Dick if he doesn't want to be caught. So he should do that and then mock her incessantly (as she's a very prideful character and he's very good at mocking people) to try and get her to slip up.

Nightwing has fought Cass Cain to an advantage and beat Ra's in a fight right before he took on the Bat mantle. Plus, he has taken on Deathstroke h2h, most often to a stalemate as Slade is a meta with a healing factor that keeps him going. So, I would argue that, yes, Dick has demonstrated proficient h2h in the preboot. The Talon battle in this continuity at least creates a baseline for advanced fighting technique. Flying and dodging should not be the only tricks in his hat, especially since those skills are defensive and would be largely ineffective if he was forced to physically deter or contain a villain.

However, I don't disagree with your expectation on how the fight with Shiva should have happened, but that's mostly because of how stupidly written this entire two-issue arc was. I would have been happier if it looked like he achieved something that went against her aims.

[sidekick77]

deleted--double post

[Whip Whirlwind]

Nightwing has fought Cass Cain to an advantage and beat Ra's in a fight right before he took on the Bat mantle. Plus, he has taken on Deathstroke h2h, most often to a stalemate as Slade is a meta with a healing factor that keeps him going. So, I would argue that, yes, Dick has demonstrated proficient h2h in the preboot. The Talon battle in this continuity at least creates a baseline for advanced fighting technique. Flying and dodging should not be the only tricks in his hat, especially since those skills are defensive and would be largely ineffective if he was forced to physically deter or contain a villain.

Well to be honest, as much as I love Grayson, I don't think he should be able to take Cass in a straight up h2h fight. Ra's maybe, I'd like to think that Dick's skills with escrima are almost at the point where he could equal Ra's in a swordfight.

I guess my point is that Dick shouldn't be able to beat any of the top tier h2h fighters strictly using h2h (cass, bruce, shiva, etc. ), but he should be able to hang long enough to leverage his other skills against them.

However, I don't disagree with your expectation on how the fight with Shiva should have happened, but that's mostly because of how stupidly written this entire two-issue arc was. I would have been happier if it looked like he achieved something that went against her aims.

Yeah....

[Seattle Freeze]

I don't think he should be able to take Cass in a straight up h2h fight. Ra's maybe, I'd like to think that Dick's skills with escrima are almost at the point where he could equal Ra's in a swordfight.

You think Cass is a superior fighter than Ra's!?! Cass and Dick may be skilled, but to Ra's level? I mean, Batman could barely defeat them and I don't think Dick could fight Bruce to a stalemate.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Yeah, good point. I think Cass could maybe take Ra's, since I consider her equal to Bruce (possibly better) in h2h.

Really though, Dick shouldn't be able to take Ra's in a straight up fight. I mean he shouldn't get spartan kicked out a window like Tim did, but any version of Dick beating Ra's should include some bat gadgets or a clever strategy.

[Godlike13]

Dick beat Ra's before. But IMO more fights with Nightwing against technically better H2H fighters should go like this, [1], [2], [3], [4].

[Whip Whirlwind]

Yeah that's perfect. Dick getting the upper hand against Deathstroke is admittedly a bit suspect, but I'm fine attributing it to Slade being cocky and Dick suddenly going from down and out to fighting like crazy.

Now if Dick really wanted to BEAT deathstroke, he'd use that higher position and just end it with explosives, gas, etc. instead of going for Langstrom.

[Seattle Freeze]

So who REALLY is the best assassin- Deathstroke or Lady Shiva?