Does Thor's hammer actually make him seem weaker?

[Starfish]

There is no untouchable power in the Marvel universe. Even the Chaos King was sucker punched out of reality by a juiced up Herc.

[dbcb314]

Thor without Mjolnir is still the same Thor, just minus the weather manipulation and Earth-shifting powers as well as the dimension dumps. Marvel has to sell toys/props so Thor is always depicted holding his hammer. The conflict you're thinking of is in the live-action Avengers and Thor films. Both portray Thor as possessing his ultimate powers when holding the hammer without explicitly saying so. Heck, during the Hulk/Thor skirmish, Thor is avoiding those jet bullets while Loki gets shot directly in the face in the opening scene while barely flinching. Even though Thor had a nice showing against Hulk, he needed Mjolnir to clock him nicely. Heck, Thor was used as a main-event jobber to both Iron Man and Cap. A throw like that of Mjolnir to Iron Man in the opening salvo would've sent him hurling for miles in a comic. Iron Man essentially no-sells it. That super-jump and super-Mjolnir shot to Cap's shield in comicdom would've flattened poor Cap. In the film it just turns Cap's shield into a gong. In the comics, generally speaking, he's still just as strong and invulnerable without Mjolnir. The writers constantly have him use it to summon lightning to remind younger readers "Hey kids, look! The god of thunder!"

Dude, have you ever seen a JET BULLET lol. It is like a BB versus a 9mm bullet.

ANd Thor was not jobbed in the fight with Iron Man. He said he had no quarrel with Iron Man and took 400% Iron Man's best shots with ease and was beginning to beat the living shit out of him.

[blakkrussian]

About Doc Samson, he took out Hulk because he knew him better than anybody and he went at it with a strategy when Hulk was completly mindless. Thor rarely is that strategic. He should but he isn't. Now we should not forget that when Hulk fought and almost defeated the combined forces of Wonder Man, Iron Man, Hercules and Namor, he was more savage and incontrolable than when he fought Samson there. Notice the difference in costume with Samson there compared to when he intervened in the Hulk vs the others fight.

Thor hits a helluva lot harder than Doc Samson. Hulk even at base level is a helluva lot stronger than Samson too, and Thor has fought practically all incarnations of Hulk, but is always getting his butt kicked.

[blakkrussian]

Nobody ever denied that this was PIS.


He didn't hurt it at all.
He just bfr'd it for a brief moment, which ld into the destruction of another planet.
This pissed the Phoenix off, und you know how it turned out after.....

Davew128 got it right.

[DiceRoll]

Dude, have you ever seen a JET BULLET lol. It is like a BB versus a 9mm bullet.

ANd Thor was not jobbed in the fight with Iron Man. He said he had no quarrel with Iron Man and took 400% Iron Man's best shots with ease and was beginning to beat the living shit out of him.

Actually J.A.R.V.I.S. just said "400% capacity," meaning that he had four times as much power in reserve. Now if he said "output" then yeah, his beams would be four times as strong, but he didn't. Lemme put it this way, if a battery was charged to hold 4 times as much energy, would the flashlight it powered shine four times as bright?

Also for a guy with no quarrel, he seemed pretty into the fight. Especially when, you know, he tried to blast Tony with lightning.

[davew128]

Don't see a proof for that. And even if that's the case, then this is, plain and simple, also PIS. Period.

Nobody during the whole AvX should have done ANY damage to the PF/P5, save for Wanda and hope.

Bear in mind that Thor alone has driven off Galactus and cracked open a Celestial's armor. Dr. Strange before giving up his title of SS messed up Nebula when she wore the IG. Nobody in their right mind would call that PIS.

[DaronK]

As DiceRoll points out, thats not true. The shield's vibranium acts as a kinetic energy absorber. Cap has literally survived a skyfall by landing on the shield which aborbs the impact. This has been the case pretty much all along. Nothing short of cosmic power is going to dent the shield or cause recoil on the wearer, DESPITE what we saw in AvX #1 and a Cyclops blast. That had no business happening.

Didn't cap use his shield like this in Uncanny Avengers, as a means of propulsion?

Maybe that means the shield isn't working as it's supposed to, and Thor could pummel him even while holding it... :)

[DiceRoll]

Didn't cap use his shield like this in Uncanny Avengers, as a means of propulsion?

Maybe that means the shield isn't working as it's supposed to, and Thor could pummel him even while holding it... :)

Which many people had questioned as soon as the previews came out.

[DaronK]

Which many people had questioned as soon as the previews came out.

Right, but as I was jokingly pointing out, since we've seen him propelled twice in as many months...maybe the shield doesn't work like that anymore...

[thirdfalcon]

Thor has always been stronger than Hulks base level so he should have been able to K.O him before he gots too strong in at least a couple of fights, but he never has. PLUS he has the darned hammer. Thors upper level of strength is also supposed to be unknown as is always stated to 'hold back'. He can get 10X stronger too if need be with Warrior Madness. So someone starts out stronger has the most powerful club in the univers at his disposal yet still get tossed like a ragdoll in every encounter with the Hulk regardless?

Son, even Doc Samson K.O.ed Hulk. And not 'regular Hulk', but the mindless Hulk who took on Sub Mariner, Wonder Man, Hercules and Iron man at the same time. Doc Samson who was 'class 75' at the time. Pardon me for thinking that a god many times stronger durable and powerful than Samson should get the occasional upper hand against the Hulk. Maybe i am expecting too much.



We KNOW the Phoenix Force is one of the most powerful in the universe, and we always expected Thor to lose, but *5* times? How many times can a character get his arse kicked in one series before fans of such character get annoyed? What other character got beaten so many times in it?



Okay, we get the message Marvel, dont rub it in.

'credit for jumping into a unwinnable fight every time'? what like a punch drunk boxer? They get derision not praise. In England we have a guy like this, name of Audley harrison, the guy is despised and hated. He keeps talking big and going into fights, getting his arse kicked then doing it again to try and fleece the public for a payday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/art...k-Collins.html

What a tosser.

And before you type crap about 'fanboys and the P5' maybe YOU can explain how *Caps shield and *Wolverines claws* can somehow do more damage than Mjolnir then, actually drawing blood to these GODLIKE creatures or P5 cyclops being tossed around by Iceman in issue 11 ? Is that okay then? Whats the magical 'physics' behind Wolverines claws,or Icemans snow?



Godlike my black ass. You would have a leg to stand on if the Phoenix Force wasnt riddled with so many inconsistencies. Thor can somehow 'hurt' full Phoenix with a hammer toss, yet get thrown around by and cannot hurt someone with 1/5th of it?

This is the same P5 Namor who went on to almost rip off Rulks arm a few panels later. A guy who was whacked hard enough in the same issue by Mjolnir with an impact that almost levelled the surrounding buildings,and blew out all the windows, yet it appeared to do less damage than Caps shield, cos it didn't even knock Namor out of the air like the shield .

So your complaining about inconsistencies yet you are using inconsistencies to prove your point with Doc Samson.

These characters have been around for half a century and have been written by hundreds of people. You are going to get very many hard rules that are followed beyond the basics. Samson knocked Hulk out because some writer needed him too to tell his story but he hasn't been consistently potrayed as able to do that.

Cap shield has been addressed many times already so if you don't get it then your just being obtuse, and Wolverine's claws cut rather than strike so it makes sense that they could do superficial damage. A hammer has different uses than a knife. Sometimes a knife is going to be more useful, but it's not like it did any good or mattered enough that people remember it either way.

So in general it's really pretty pointless arguing with you any further if your just going to cherry pick random pis moments to prove your point. But basically if you need Thor to be better than everyone else at everything all the time than you are going to be disappointed a lot and should probably just get over it.

[DiceRoll]

Right, but as I was jokingly pointing out, since we've seen him propelled twice in as many months...maybe the shield doesn't work like that anymore...

Yeah, I was just pointing out you're not alone in that thought. It'd be nice to have that explained someday.

[blakkrussian]

So your complaining about inconsistencies yet you are using inconsistencies to prove your point with Doc Samson.

These characters have been around for half a century and have been written by hundreds of people. You are going to get very many hard rules that are followed beyond the basics. Samson knocked Hulk out because some writer needed him too to tell his story but he hasn't been consistently potrayed as able to do that.

Cap shield has been addressed many times already so if you don't get it then your just being obtuse, and Wolverine's claws cut rather than strike so it makes sense that they could do superficial damage. A hammer has different uses than a knife. Sometimes a knife is going to be more useful, but it's not like it did any good or mattered enough that people remember it either way.

So in general it's really pretty pointless arguing with you any further if your just going to cherry pick random pis moments to prove your point. But basically if you need Thor to be better than everyone else at everything all the time than you are going to be disappointed a lot and should probably just get over it.

Anybody talking about beings just below Living Tribunal then trying to explain Wolverine cutting them or Caps shield hurting them has given your argument ZERO credibility. Sounds like just another BORING street level fan who hates anyone being stronger than say Spider man, probably they remind you of the tough school bully jocks who gave you wedgies at school. You people are boring. Thor is a God with incalcuable strength and you are telling me i want him to 'be better than everybody else'. God. Duh. He was created to be by Stan Lee to be such. Why are you trying to shoot the messenger? He was created to be the stronger than Hulk in the damn first place. Am i wrong? no i am right. heres a thread on his comments:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...up-to-Superman

If i was you, i'd just stick to your Punisher comic books, Vaseline and Kleenex.

As for Samson the writer allowed him to knock out Hulk as he obviously thought he had the power to do so. They wouldnt have Spidey doing it, nobody would accept it. they couldnt have DD doing it no one would accept it. Obviosly Samson was deemed strong enough to knock Hulk spark out, something Thor hasnt been allowed to do in your '50 years' and 100 Hulk battles, even though he has strength and power to shatter worlds, but concepts like this are likely to fry your street level brain and your grittily realistic character loving sensibilities, and have you seeking a darkened room to lie down in.

If i create a thread on why Daredevil cant do this or that i'll let ya know.

[infernohara]

There is no untouchable power in the Marvel universe. Even the Chaos King was sucker punched out of reality by a juiced up Herc.

So true. I've never really seen the Phoenix force as a be all power thats unstoppable. Obviously Marvel doesn't either when it constantly gets beaten by the x-men on the daily.

I think you're taking things a bit to seriously BR. I know you hate seeing Thor as some weak character, but to show how big and bad the next character is, you have to make the big gun take a beating. Its just the rules.

I'm not sure why you take this so seriously when in the story with the Phoenix, Thor was able to hurt it so bad that it had to refuel itself with another planet. Then, split into parts he suddenly couldn't take on 1/5 of the power (obviously the hammer got weaker). Its logic like that that makes me not take that kind of loss seriously.

[Talkie Toaster]

I just like to point out about the Doc Samson thing, that that was a total sucker punch. Hulk at the time didn't believe Samson was real (Banner was messing with his mind and Hulk had just seen hallucinations of pretty much his entire rogue gallery), so Samson was able to take him by surprise.
Still broke every bone in his hand though

[blakkrussian]

I just like to point out about the Doc Samson thing, that that was a total sucker punch. Hulk at the time didn't believe Samson was real (Banner was messing with his mind and Hulk had just seen hallucinations of pretty much his entire rogue gallery), so Samson was able to take him by surprise.
Still broke every bone in his hand though

Juggernaut sucker punched Hulk and it still took him like about 5 blows. he tricked Hulk by being his friend then sucker punched him from behind. Hulk didn't recognise him out of juggernaut costume.