Who are the "gods" of DC?

[klinton]

That's just an insane thing to say. Even the pantheons acknowledge, directly, the superiority of the Judeo-Christian god in the DC and MU.

All the other pantheons of the 3rd world are equal, but the New Gods are and always have been special and separate.

No, they were the first born of the Godwave, with lesser beings like the Olympians being third generation. The Source is the almighty, hidden and unknowable by it's wall.

It's that concept, exactly, that I take issue with: that Morrison set the christian god and his hosts of angels as a higher power. It was in that moment that I felt Diana was played a fool. I felt no need for this.

[Batman9]

Hmm... so if there were a tier, it would go: Judeo/Christian God/1st Monitor/Source, Old Gods, Pantheon Gods, New Gods in decreasing order of power?

[Mr. Holmes]

Switch Pantheon and New Gods. But hierarchy is still kind of muddled from there, but it's as good as any.

[Desaad]

No, they were the first born of the Godwave, with lesser beings like the Olympians being third generation. The Source is the almighty, hidden and unknowable by it's wall.

That's incorrect, even as described by Byrne.

The New Gods are the FOURTH world. They came AFTER the third world, as 4 follows 3. They were most powerful because they had the greatest proximity to the Godwave, but chronologically they came after the other pantheons. When Darkseid, as Uxas, came to Earth and caused the Greco-Roman gods to split into two pantheons, he did it through guile precisely because of his relative youth. Later he simply conquered them.

It's that concept, exactly, that I take issue with: that Morrison set the christian god and his hosts of angels as a higher power. It was in that moment that I felt Diana was played a fool. I felt no need for this.

Morrison didn't do that. It had been that way for decades.

[Desaad]

Hmm... so if there were a tier, it would go: Judeo/Christian God/1st Monitor/Source, Old Gods, Pantheon Gods, New Gods in decreasing order of power?

There is no tier, really.

The Source/Judeo-Christian God/1st Monitor is generally all one thing, and generally treated as the top of the food chain. But it would well be that the Source is something bigger, higher, better than all the rest.

In fact, despite past non-Morrison evidence to the contrary, I'd wager that the Source is above ALL of it, as it's the very SOURCE of ideas, the platonic Forms that are the New Gods. From this realm humanity gains the inspiration to create fiction (the great creator myth, the 1st Monitor/the Judeo Christian God).

Anyway, all of this is irrelevant, and structuring an exact hierarchy is useless. The Old Gods were originally just the 3rd World gods we're talking about; Kirby meant them to be the Norse Gods, Thor and Hela and Balduur. Eventually, as DC wanted 'those' gods to be in play we got the Old Gods as this old cosmic god group, but originally the new Gods were supposed to be MORE powerful, specifically because they were relevant to the modern age.

As to how all the gods relate in terms of power, it depends on the showing. The last time we saw them all interacting en masse just a single middling New God in Granny Goodness not only defeated and subjugated the entire Greek Pantheon, but a handful of others destroyed EVERY god, even the old forgotten gods that empowered Black Adam and Shazam.

[klinton]

That's incorrect, even as described by Byrne.

The New Gods are the FOURTH world. They came AFTER the third world, as 4 follows 3. They were most powerful because they had the greatest proximity to the Godwave, but chronologically they came after the other pantheons. When Darkseid, as Uxas, came to Earth and caused the Greco-Roman gods to split into two pantheons, he did it through guile precisely because of his relative youth. Later he simply conquered them.




Morrison didn't do that. It had been that way for decades.

Hmm...perhaps my memories are muddled here. Until Morrison's JLA I'd never seen mention of the christian god.

But I'm rather certain of the Godwave. I may have missed a couple steps (it was a concept I was quick to dismiss in my mind). Ima dig out some back issues and try to find the description. I'm pretty sure it was Byrne, but I may be thinking of Perez in War of the Gods.

EDIT:

Yeah, I was wrong. It was in Genesis, and it was Byrne. It was worse than I remembered though. The Olympians are the first pass of the Godwave, making them little more than superheroes in thier status (who were created by the second pass).

So, yeah: not a fan of the old system of things. :p

[golgi]

The PRIMAL Monitor is at the top. You can say 5-D Imps are greater than MOST beings in DC, since they have master over time and space. Here is a hierarchy I have posted before.

1.) Beings/Forces who are beyond any creation (Beings that even Hypertime does apply to):
The Presence/The Overseers/The Primal Monitor

The Source/Carnivore with Presence's power/Gyges and Garamas/Ultimate Light/Ultimate Darkness (Ultimate Darkness and Ultimate Light are the balance of the Presence)/The Voice/The Unnameable One, Elaine Belloc, Mandrakk (original), CA Superman, Lucifer Morningstar, Michael Demiurgos.


2.) Hypertime abstract Beings/Forces (beings that could affect the whole Hypertimeline):
Hyperman (theoretically), Mr. Mxyzptlk, Bat-Mite, The Decreator, The Adjudicator.


3.) Multiversal abstract beings/forces (beings that could affect the Multiverse):
Una, the Worm of Heaven and Hell/Ea/Mallo Keeper of the Cosmic Balance/The Sword of Destiny/The Word/The Void/Anti-Monitor (COIE)/Entropy or Krona at full potential, The Godwave, The Ultimator, The Abyss, Emperor Joker, Mandrakk II, FC Darkseid, Synaar the Demiurge.


4.) Universal abstract beings/fundamental forces who embody a universe (Beings that could affect a single universe):
God Swamp Thing/Spectre/Kismet or Eternity/ Krona (Trinity)/Death/Infinity (The Timestream)/Oblivion (Nothingness)/Angor/Entropy (End of Time after everything dies)/Maltusian Gods/The Moraiei/Three Witches/Destiny/Dream/Darksome/Yk'Kphat/the Antechamber of Souls/The Great Tree/The Abyss (Pre-Boot Dial H For Hero Villain)/Omega Attractor/The Oracle Entity/Maaldor/Ningal/The Aleph/Order/Chaos/Willow and her husband as one (one with the universe)/OA/Quantum Field/Azarath/Astro-Force/Omega Effect/Alpha Energy/Zero Hour Parallax (full power)/Ion (classic)/Sunbust energy/The Shadowlands/Cosmic Lotus/Nebula Man/Imperiex Prime

The Concentrator/The Primal Atom/The Sun-Stone/Genesis Box/Worlogog wielder/Damage (Big Bang)/Anti-Matter Cannon/The Master Blaster


5.) Abstract Concepts/physical body and manifestations of the Presence:
Destruction/The Decay ancient force/Anomaly (also known as Fires of Creation itself)/Desire/Despair/Dellirium/The Union/Dark Lords of the Ultra-Realm (War, Chaos, Madness, Hate, Death, Greed and Rage), Light Lords of the Ultra-Realm (Peace, Grace, Enlightenment, Love, Order, Life and Bliss)/Rama Kushna/Meshta/Wally the God Boy/Godhead


6.) Physical body and manifestations of abstract concepts:
Black Racer/Black Flash/Nekron/The Ecruos/Anti-Life Entity/Eon (full power)/Decay II/Tiamat


7.) Godlike Metahumans/1st class Metaphysicals, Semi-Abstract, God-Like beings, race, Demons, Angels/Metaphysicals that could potentially affect the universe:
The Monitors (race)/Hamilton Benedict/Gemini Entity/Alexander Luthor/Gemworld Dimension (currently Amethyst's spirit)/Jonathan Kent/Progenitor (Element Lad reaching his full potential and becoming God of a galaxy)/Progenitor and Omnipagues (merged as one being)/The Promethian Giants/The Quantum Mechanics/The Anti-Matter Man (Pre-Boot), Monarch.

Ramiel/Duma/Sandalphon/Archangel Amendaniel/Lord of Order (Shatru, St'ann, Terataya, Ynar, J'akk, Nabu the Wise, Patagones, Amethyst)/Lord of Chaos (Child, Gorrum, Hytuurnus, m'Shulla, Shivering Jemmy, The Weaver, T'Charr,The Shallow Brigade and the Laughing Dancers,The five original Lords of Chaos,Typhon, Vandaemon, Zanadu)/The Unity/Shattered God/SHAZAM's Elder Gods (Marzosh, Arel, Ribalvei, Voldar, Elbiam, Lumium)/S'ivaa The Destroyer/The Shadow Elements race/The Three Demons - Rath, Ghast, Abnegazar/Clockwerx/Trigon (in his dimension)/Krona/Bedlam/Dominus/Jakeem Thunder/Johnny Thunder/30th Century or present Mordru/The Great Darkness Saga Darkseid/Doctor Manhattan/Satan/Spear of Destiny/Azmodus (like the Spectre varies)/Shaitan/Shathan/Ultimate Man (fully evolved)/Ganthet possessed by Parallax/Superman Prime/Wonder Woman channeling the Godwave/Starbreaker/Yuga Khan/Brainiac 13/Fenris the Devourer/Omniphagues/Overmaster/Epoch/Vyronis/Preacherverse God/King of Tears/The Devil/Corinthian/The First of the Fallen/Saint of Killer/Angel of Death/Time Trapper I (Rokk Krinn)/Time Trapper II (Lori Morning?)/Glorith/Infinite Man/Timeless Ones/The Time Beast/Kulak/Eclipso (depowered and became Heart of Darkness)/Abraxis/Dr. Destiny/The Agents/Dark Angel/Zatanna and Adam (Godhead)/Agent If and the Realtor/The Carnivore (pre-God)/Cykroth/The Evil One/Maggedon/Alien Ator of the Timeless Place/Primordial Old Gods of Chaos/The Lords of Light/Nether-World Gods/Satan (Phantom Stranger issue pre-boot)/Willie Wisher/Father Time/Captain Skull/Cocoon of the Undying Ones.

[golgi]

8) 1st Class Metahumans, supernatural, and aliens/2nd class Metaphysicals,Semi-Abstract, and God-Like beings/race/Demons/Angels
The Unimaginable/Unimaginable's race/Candlemaker/Egregores/TDHD MadGod of Sector 3600/Millinneum Giants/Cosmic Gamblers/OWner of the Earth/The A/Rift/Neron/The Second of the Fallen/The Third of the Fallen/The Endless One/Old Gods- Arzaz, Baaldur, Lokee, The Nameless One, Sirius, Wotan/A typical 5th dimensional imp (varies) (low showings)/The I/Luck Lords/X'Hal/Agamemno/The Aurakles/The One/The Fiend with Five Faces/Erishad's baby/Outer Gods (Shub-Niggurath, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep)/Elder Gods and the Old Ones (Cthulhu,M'Nagalah, k'zum'uggarth, Daemoniacus, Kolkothak, Koth-Shugoth, The Undying Ones and the N'Garai)/Netherworld Creatures/Andromeda and M'onel given powers by the Anomaly/The ID/The Miracle Machine/Parallax (Post Zero Hour)/Jericho (vessel of Azarath)/Zauriel (angel form)/Asmodel/Pax Dei host/Thrones/Saraphim/other angel host that Gabriel or Sandalphon are in charge of/Earth-Born Angels- Supergirl (angelic powers), Comet, and Blithe (if they actually use their powers), Twilight with Supergirl's Earth Born Angel Power (still has it I believe)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Light Entity/Leviathan (Phantom Stranger pre-boot)/Asmodeus/Oblivion II/Secret (full potential)

Sun Eater/Mr. Nebula/Cannibal Planet/Aquarius/Other Living Stars/Council of the Living Stars/Solaris/Morbiac the Zombie Star/The Vampire Sun/Mogo/Empire of Tears/Wonderworld inhabitors- Adam One, The Mote, and other Wonderworlders/Manhunter of Mars/Parliaments of Planets/Earth Elemental Swamp Thing/The Ancient Ones/Maya/Gaea

Monitor/Anti-Monitor (before he absorbed the multiverse)/Scarabus

9) Skyfather levels
Highfather Izaya/Darkseid/Takion/Stayne/a typical Guardians of the Univese/Ganthet/Phantom Stranger/Zeus/Odin or any skyfathers/SHAZAM wizard/The Controllers/The Zamarons/Guardians Council/Qwardians (creator of the Anti-Green Lantern Corps)/Ares/Harmonia/Deimos/Eris/Phobos/Thunderhead/Helia/Odin/Osiris/Mother Herrae and other Primitives/Osirect/Anubis/Hades/Cronus/Harrier/Disdain/Titan/Slaughter/Arch/Oblivion/other skyfathers and death gods/Superman 1 million/Superman Dynasty/Koth/The Seven/Wonder Woman (Goddess)/Animal Avatars Gods (Hawkgod, Snakegods, Beargods, Bullgods, etc.)/Rao and other Kryptonian gods/Gog/Evil Avatar Raven/Trigon's Daughter Raven/Lord Satanis/Trigon (on Earth)/Infernal One/The Redeemer/Mister Miracle (ruling New Genesis)/Stone Giant's race/Parliament of Flames/Parliament of Stones/Parliament of Waves/Parliament of Trees/Parliament of Vibes/Blaze/Lord Satanus/The Three Faces of Evil- Terror, Sin, and Wickedness/Validus (Pre-Boot)/The Powerstone or anyone wielding the Powerstone/Metron/Red Jack/Rhea Jones (reaching her full potential before killing Red Jack)/Shadowy Mr. Evans/Saint of Killer/Dark Gods/Lois Lane (Goddess of Integrity)/Dreamslayer/Spirit King/Ultimate Man/X'ult/Evolvo harnessing the space and time Anomaly/Willow/Willow's chils/Snapper Carr (genetic potential)/Human race (genetic potential)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Ancient Ones/Xenon/Disciple/H'ronmeer/C'eridyall/The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse - Death, War, Faminine, and Plague (manifestations of The Adjudator's will)

10) Time-travelers/2nd class metahumans, supernatural, and aliens
Extant/Waverider and Linear Man/Hourman III (without the worlogog)/Gabriel Walker/Doomsday with GL Ring/Decay III/Brimstone/The Annihilator/Eon (depowered)/Godfrey Gaius (true form)/Black Zero/Gayle Marsh (Psi)/Lex Luthor (portion of Darkseid's power)/Penguin (portion of Darkseid's power)/Joker (portion of Darkseid's power)/Brainiac (potion of Darkseid's power)/Agogg/Pre-Crisis Superman/Pre-Crisis Supergirl/Pre-Crisis Kryptonians/Pre-Crisis Daxamites/Mon-El/Pre-Crisis Superboy/Pre-Crisis Wonderwoman/Pre-Crisis Andromeda/Bloodthirst (could be higher, not much is known about him except that he could change his appearance and he beat the crap out of Superman)/Monarch/Dev-Em/OWAW Doomsday/Doomsday War Doomsday/Goldstar/Triumph given powers by Lkz/Pre-Crisis Maxima/OWAW Superman (merged with Strange Visitor)/Pre-Crisis Ultraboy/Superwoman (Kristen Wells)/Hunter and Prey Doomsday/Element Lad/Element Man/Starfinger/Star Boy/Kid Quantum II/Kid Pyscho/Graviton Man/Gravity Lord (both could be higher)/Superboy Robot (pre-crisis)/Atmos/Brother Blood/Dr. Light (full potential, enraged, and very crazy)/Dr. Light II/Superboy of the 843rd Century/Superboy 1 million

11) Herald-Class Level/3rd class angels, metahuman, supernautrals, and demons/Hulk-Level
Helspont/Lord Defile/Saviour/Regis and Blue Aliens/Preacherverse Devil/Dark Lantern/Dark Flash/Fernus/Burning Martians/Vartox/Amazo/The OMAC Androids/BION/Composite Superman/Garok/Dr. Fate/Dr. Fate II/Dr. Fate III/Dr. Fate IV/Tim Hunter/Tim Hunter II (Tim Hunter's evil counterpart from another universe)/Anti-Fate (high portrayal in the Fates and TM)/Kestrel I/Krestrel II/Composite Man/Deadman (varies)/Green Lantern Priest/Creator-2/Zatanna/Jennifer Morgan/Janissary with Book of Eternity/Despero/Zoom 2/Shaggy Man/The General/The Elementals (Swamp Thing, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Naiad)/Orion (highest showing)/Brainiac 2.5/Doomsday Rex/Sun-dipped Superman

Martian Manhunter/Malefic/Hyperclan- A-Mortal, Armek, Fluxus, Primad, Protex, Tronix, Zenturion and Zum/Green, Pale, Red and White Martians (at their best)/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (highest showing)/Wally West (highest showing or using Speed Force)/Sinestro/Effigy/Nero/Major Force/Captain Atom (highest showing)/Firestorm I and Firestorm II (highest showing)/Celeste Rockfish/Cobalt Blue/Kilg%re/Obsidian/Dr. Polaris

Superman/Mr. Majestic (could be ranked higher)/M'onel/The Martians (average to high)/Kryptonians/Daxamites/Andromeda/Captain Marvel/Lightray/Black Adam/Eradicator/Martian Mahunter/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (average)/Ultraman/Orion (average showing)/Captain Atom (average showing)/Doomsday/Firestorm I/Firestorm II (average to high)/Breach/Max Faraday/The Void/Providence/Manchester Black/Power Ring/Massacre/High-Tech/Anti-Green Lanterns/Malefic/Green Martians/Rhea Jones/Preus/Cyborg Superman/Mongul/Zatanna (average showing)/Auron/Radiant/Despero/Thor/Captain Comet/Starboy/Starman I/Starman II/Starman III/Starman IV/Starman V/Starman VI/Starman VII/Starman VIII/Starman 1,000,000/Lord Malvolio/Jade/Evil Star/General Zod/Ignition/Kancer/Warrior/Lex Luthor (Armor)/Manchester Black/Triumph/Strata/The Crusade/The Union/Golgoth/Superman Robots/Superman Androids/Brainiac/Pulsar Stargrave/Ultivac/Manhunters/Darkstars/Arion/Dr. Occult/Echantress/Steel (Aegis Entropy Armor)/Ultraboy/Warlord of Ys/Anti-Matter Man/Antithesis/Brainwave II/Ferro Lad/Cosmic Boy (pre-Crisis)/Gaius (in coma)/Lobo/Etrigan

Wonder Woman/Circe/Maxima (high showing)/Samaritan/Apollo/Icon/The Martians (low showings)/the Green Lanterns (average to low showings)/Captain Atom (average to low showings)/Maul/Solomon Grundy/Uncle Sam/Death Rite (Draaga)/Hercules/Mantis/Ultra Boy/Captain Marvel Jr./Mary Marvel (high showing on the Marvel sidekicks)/Geoforce (high showing)/Faora/Arclight/Son of Vulcan/Bizarro/Thor/Wanjina/Red Tornado/
Body Defenses of the Owner of the Earth/Kalibak/Grayven/Superwoman/Zealot/Validus (Post Zero-Hour)/Steve Dayton/Solaar/The Olympian/Ferro/Cosmic Boy (post-Crisis)/Scanner/White Drawf/Drone/4D/The Key/Imperiex Probes/Heralds of the Owner of the Earth/Terraformer of the Owner of the Earth /Jenny Quantum

[Outside_85]

Before Flashpoint it was somewhat up in the air who was the top god. The Presence was the pinnacle if you asked Zauriel or the Spectre, but it would be the Source if you asked any of the New Gods (except Darkseid ofc).
Amazons Attack added yet another layer of complication when Granny Godness overran Olympus without anyone noticing (probably helped by the Gods having gone into exile before Infinite Crisis).

But above all the beings that claimed to be gods were the Monitors that were far above such notions, to them life on Earth was observed through a microscope, which was why they called them Germ Worlds.

[Desaad]

Before Flashpoint it was somewhat up in the air who was the top god. The Presence was the pinnacle if you asked Zauriel or the Spectre, but it would be the Source if you asked any of the New Gods (except Darkseid ofc).
Amazons Attack added yet another layer of complication when Granny Godness overran Olympus without anyone noticing (probably helped by the Gods having gone into exile before Infinite Crisis).

But above all the beings that claimed to be gods were the Monitors that were far above such notions, to them life on Earth was observed through a microscope, which was why they called them Germ Worlds.

No evidence that the Monitors were above the New Gods, as MOrrison formulated it.

Conceptually, makes more sense the other way.

[Outside_85]

No evidence that the Monitors were above the New Gods, as MOrrison formulated it.

Conceptually, makes more sense the other way.

How exactly does it make more sense that New Gods>Monitors?

Reading Final Crisis I get the impression that the Monitors have been around for far longer than the New Gods and are far more advanced than them (that Monitor who came looking for Superman froze time and pulled a cosmic pause button out of her sleeve to keep it that way while they were gone).

[Desaad]

How exactly does it make more sense that New Gods>Monitors?

Reading Final Crisis I get the impression that the Monitors have been around for far longer than the New Gods and are far more advanced than them (that Monitor who came looking for Superman froze time and pulled a cosmic pause button out of her sleeve to keep it that way while they were gone).

The Monitors are the writers/editors/artists in the 'real' DCU. They are the 'caretakers' of the fictional universes, they add and subtract in minor terms.

But the New Gods are the noumenal FONT from which those writers/editors/artists drew inspiration, that which they were trying to represent in paper and ink.



But more obviously, Darkseid stepping foot in the physical multiverse ALONE caused the whole damn thing to degrade, to shake itself into oblivion like an epileptic breaking her own neck. The Monitors entered the physical multiverse, presumably in full form, at will without ill effect, and were just 'caretakers'. None that we saw had anything even remotely approaching multiverse-destroying power.


And stopping time, really? That's the best you've got? Reed Richards does that on his lunchbreak.

[Outside_85]

But more obviously, Darkseid stepping foot in the physical multiverse ALONE caused the whole damn thing to degrade, to shake itself into oblivion like an epileptic breaking her own neck. The Monitors entered the physical multiverse, presumably in full form, at will without ill effect, and were just 'caretakers'. None that we saw had anything even remotely approaching multiverse-destroying power.

Mandrakk
Anti-Monitor

Darkseid could only become a multiversal calamity by dying.

And stopping time, really? That's the best you've got? Reed Richards does that on his lunchbreak.

But none of the New Gods can, nor have they come up with something that's even close to it.

[Desaad]

Mandrakk

Mandrakk was a nothing, a ghost, the collective unconsciousness of a group of caretakers-turned vampires.

Anti-Monitor

Anti-Monitor had to build all kinds of machinery to do what he did, and did it one universe at a time. Not at ALL the same thing.

Darkseid could only become a multiversal calamity by dying.

Well, yes, it took him being delivered a mortal blow to enter in the germy little physical bubble called the multiverse.

Previous to that he couldn't be bothered. Did you not get that element of Final Crisis? The destruction of the multiverse was his last ditch crap effort, when everything else had been taken away from him. It was his consolation prize. He couldn't have the REAL prize, which presumably existed 'behind the stars', in dimensions higher and brighter and bolder. He was cast down into THEIRS, and just walking around in their soaked-cardboard reality ripped it to shreds.

But none of the New Gods can, nor have they come up with something that's even close to it.

What is 'even close to it'? Time Travel? They have that, in spades. Traversing and manipulating hypertime at will? They've got that to.

Show me where the Monitors destory whole stars with their energy? Their biggest 'feat' was, what, bringing back the dead? Saving Lois? Darkseid has at least 3 separate methods to do that, alone.

The New Gods have weapons that destroy and create entire UNIVERSES, at whim. That alter reality on scales large and small. That steal, and build, souls. That allow entrance into the heart of GOD itself, the Source. That crack the pane between the comic book world and OURS, allow characters like Zatanna to see the hidden machinery that works inside comic books.

If we want to go by what one group has done that the other has not? The Monitors are completely f'd, because they did almost nothing.

[Castel]

What's funny is that there is this so called one god who claims to be the one and only when obviously it's bullshit cause, well, we know for a fact that there is other gods in the DCU.

So if it's really him who created the universe and that he controls everything then why did he created or allowed the creation of those new gods who by their very existence are making the whole "i'm the one and only" a joke ? (uniqueness who is a huge aspect of any monotheist religion of course, kinda the whole point)

Theological paradox or godly silliness ?