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  1. #46
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    And that's why Coast City blew up!

    No...wait...
    'Dox out.

    "But I think the difference is, when Democrats go crazy, they get shown the door. When Republicans go crazy they get appointed to the Science committee. " - Shawn Hopkins

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  2. #47
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    The death of Superman was overrated, but the Reign of the Supermen was a pretty good story.
    Agreed. I'm not much of a Superman fan, but I love Steel, like Eradicator and Cyborg Supes, and manage to tolerate Superboy.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member J. Robb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike-X View Post
    I agree. It would have had a lot more impact if they'd had Luthor or another established villain finally succeed in killing him after trying for years, rather than just pulling some new character out of their arses as a plot device.
    I think the death/return story's biggest impact was breathing new life in Superman comics with new characters- Doomsday, Superboy, Steel, the Cyborg. It would have been less eventful as yet another Luthor story.

  4. #49
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    Except that Doomsday wasn't really a character, just a boring unstoppable killing machine.
    'Dox out.

    "But I think the difference is, when Democrats go crazy, they get shown the door. When Republicans go crazy they get appointed to the Science committee. " - Shawn Hopkins

    "Can it, you nit!" - Violet Beauregard

    "And Paradox is never correct. About anything."- Kid Omega


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  5. #50
    Be Right Back... Spike-X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Except that Doomsday wasn't really a character, just a boring unstoppable killing machine.
    Exactly. Characters usually have things like thoughts. And feelings. And motivations. And dialogue.
    Christ, do I have to do all the thinking for the entire fucking Internet? - Michael P

  6. #51
    Nice Melons DubipR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Except that Doomsday wasn't really a character, just a boring unstoppable killing machine.
    Doomsday was interesting when they explained his origin in the Superman/Doomsday mini by Jurgens. You knew why he attacked Superman, but overall he was a product of the 90s that was just there for the cash grab.
    "If you live among wolves you have to act like a wolf."

  7. #52
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    They didn't deal with rape, no, but people being bumped off and villains finding out their identities* and soap opera guff, that's all in there. Marvel also loved its "hated and feared" trope and the Thing being all angsty because he's an ugly bugger... If we don't like heroes being miserable, we have to blame Stan Lee. It's all his fault, he made soap opera angst a big thing and Chris Claremont & others ramped it up.

    * That was a weird thing for IdC to make a big thing about as if it wasn't a well worn trope.
    It's fitting that you mention The Thing, as he's one of the best superheroes ever created. Despite the fact that he's depressed about his appearance, most people love The Thing because he's a fun and funny guy. Read Marvel Two-in-One and tell me The Thing is nothing but an angsty superhero.

  8. #53
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    It's fitting that you mention The Thing, as he's one of the best superheroes ever created. Despite the fact that he's depressed about his appearance, most people love The Thing because he's a fun and funny guy. Read Marvel Two-in-One and tell me The Thing is nothing but an angsty superhero.
    I agree with that.
    There's a reason that Wolfman swiped The Thing's personality wholesale for Cyborg in the New Teen Titans..all the way down to how he talked.

  9. #54
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    I agree with that.
    There's a reason that Wolfman swiped The Thing's personality wholesale for Cyborg in the New Teen Titans..all the way down to how he talked.
    That's an interesting angle, but I disagree. There are some definite similarities, but Ben Grimm had a sense of humor while Vic didn't. And even compared to most heroes including Cyborg, Ben Grimm fought with a lot of heart. He was generally facing vastly more powerful opponents but never quit. Cyborg was more of a complainer, more easily demoralized after getting a limb damaged. And this is a more subtle distinction, but Ben thought of himself as a monster, while Vic thought of himself more as a handicapped person.
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  10. #55
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    Despite the fact that he's depressed about his appearance, most people love The Thing because he's a fun and funny guy.

    That's true, but "OH MY GOD I'M A MONSTER WAIIILL" is a key part of his character & popularity (it's the fun guy despite his angst, not just the fun guy) and has been since 1961. They got loads of angst of him.

    Soap opera angst just sells for Marvel and DC - or did, anyway, I don't know if anyone's checked to see if it still does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    I prefer to refer to him as Doomsdeux. Absolutely no point to him at all. "Unknown space-monster guy beats Superman to death". And not even in an interesting way.
    Why did they invent a non-character to bump him off? And poor Doomsday never got the chance to do something equally hardcore afterwards, he's the ultimate one-hit wonder.
    "We must fight on!"
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  11. #56
    Peachtree St. Irregular Loren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    Why did they invent a non-character to bump him off? And poor Doomsday never got the chance to do something equally hardcore afterwards, he's the ultimate one-hit wonder.
    In at least one interview at the time, Dan Jurgens was quoted as saying that he wasn't of the opinion that after Lex's first 1000 plans to destroy Superman failed, that his 1001st plan would succeed. (Personally I like that Superman didn't die at Lex's hand, because it led to a nice scene in "Funeral" where Lex was enraged over the fact that Superman had died, but he had nothing to do with it.)

    Then there's the fact that Superman's rogues gallery is light on heavy-hitters. What other established villains were there to do the job? Brainiac (who, at the time, was still Milton Fine)? Mxy? Toyman? Prankster? I suppose it could've been Darkseid, but that makes the whole conflict a lot more cosmic in scale.

  12. #57
    Veteran Member The Beast Of Yucca Flats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DubipR View Post
    Doomsday was interesting when they explained his origin in the Superman/Doomsday mini by Jurgens. You knew why he attacked Superman, but overall he was a product of the 90s that was just there for the cash grab.
    I'd agree with this. Maybe out of boyhood nostalgia for the Death/Reign epic & the Hunter/Prey mini, but I agree.

    Doomsday just has a maximum of 2 remotely viable stories in him: debuting and wrecking shit, and-- assuming it went unaddressed before-- maybe a sequel where we learn about his origins/whatever in between him wrecking shit. And that's it. No more; you're done. To say the Law Of Diminishing Returns set in for all DC's other attempts to milk him is woefully understating (I'll make an allowance for JLU, though; being it's own thing entirely). It was especially embarrassing to read poor Paul Cornell's Action getting saddled with this deader-than-dead-wood.
    Last edited by The Beast Of Yucca Flats; 11-26-2012 at 02:46 PM.

  13. #58
    Idaho Spuds Slam_Bradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    Why did they invent a non-character to bump him off? And poor Doomsday never got the chance to do something equally hardcore afterwards, he's the ultimate one-hit wonder.

    The same reason they had to invent a non-character to break the Bat.


    I have no idea what that reason was...but they seem to have felt it was necessary in both cases.

  14. #59
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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  15. #60
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren View Post
    Personally I like that Superman didn't die at Lex's hand, because it led to a nice scene in "Funeral" where Lex was enraged over the fact that Superman had died, but he had nothing to do with it.
    That is a good moment.

    Now I wish it was Toyman who dun it, completely by fluke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley View Post
    The same reason they had to invent a non-character to break the Bat.

    I have no idea what that reason was...but they seem to have felt it was necessary in both cases.
    Bane, at least, was meant to be a character, he had an origin and a motive and could talk and an actual plan. You can do stuff with Bane. Doomsday...

    Well, there was that funny bit by Garth Ennis where Sixpack hallucinates that Doomsday is reformed and studying at night school.
    "We must fight on!"
    "We'll die. We fight and we die, that's how it goes."
    "Then we die gloriously!"
    "There's an important word there, and it's not gloriously."
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