the moral implications of the lasso

[Fong03]

We can use the word mind control if you like, but mind control is mind rape for me.

I feel that you are using the word rape far too casually.

I also disagree with your characterization of the lasso as mind control. As others have said, the lasso's powers have changed quite a lot over time. I'm not sure what it does now. If we are talking about the generic truth aspect of the lasso, it is not mind control. She does not see into their mind or perceive their thoughts. The lasso merely prevents any one from telling a lie. It is constraining an individual in the sense that it denies that person the ability to lie. It is a form of restraint. It would be the same as if she tied someone up in the lasso, rendering them unable to move. They no longer have the option to run away. I don't think there is any greater moral obligation for the former than the latter.

Now if you want to talk about some of the other more exotic powers of the lasso, then you might have an argument. I would counter that by saying how rarely you ever see Diana exploit any of them. She knows what a powerful abilities it wields and she is hesitant to use them.

[kane]

I would not have that much of a problem with the lasso only preventing the criminals from speaking lies, because they still would have the choice to say nothing. But as far as I know it does more. According to http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Lasso_of_Truth:

"Empowered by the Fires of Hestia, the Lasso forces anyone held by it to tell and understand the absolute truth. Recently, the Lasso has been shown to actually transport Diana's mind into that of whomever is tied within it. Its effects can be very dangerous, as not everyone is capable of facing the truth of their actions stripped bare of excuses. The Amazon Artemis, inexperienced with the use of the lasso, inadvertently drove a man to suicide after tying him in i [...]."

In JL 9 (NuDC) the villain refused to say anything, then she tied him up and he was compelled to aswer her questions (so he had no choice to remain silent), so it seems to work the same way as post crisis. Green Lantern was at least 2 times compelled to say something he did not want to say.

And yes, I have the same problem with telepaths etc.

I have less problems with what Batman does a) because in my opinion mind control is worse than being beaten up by Batman (invading of privacy etc.) and as far as I know Batman never really beat someone up just to gain information from him b) you still have the choice to say nothing to Batman (this may not be the smartest decision, but you have the choice).

[Outside_85]

I have less problems with what Batman does a) because in my opinion mind control is worse than being beaten up by Batman (invading of privacy etc.) and as far as I know Batman never really beat someone up just to gain information from him b) you still have the choice to say nothing to Batman (this may not be the smartest decision, but you have the choice).

a) Batman scares people because of all the broken bones he's left behind and all the crooks he's threatened with dropping from very high places.
b) No, you don't, since then he will start breaking things and then force you to.

Sure he doesnt tamper with their minds, but he leaves them either crippled or incapable of eating solid food.

[tunneler]

I am okay with Wonder Woman scaring people using the lasso and threatening them with it. I am also okay with Wonder Woman seducing people and making them tell the truth by tying them with the lasso. The lasso doesn't seem to be much use to WW anyway other than as a piece of jewelery and for tying people up, which can be done with some regular rope or strings anyway so I am also okay with her getting rid of the lasso because she thinks it is useless.

[kane]

a) Batman scares people because of all the broken bones he's left behind and all the crooks he's threatened with dropping from very high places.
b) No, you don't, since then he will start breaking things and then force you to.

Sure he doesnt tamper with their minds, but he leaves them either crippled or incapable of eating solid food.

Could you show me an instance, where Batman beat up a criminal and left them either crippled or incapable of eating solid food not in a fight, but in the process to gain information from them?

[BraveSirRobin]

Could you show me an instance, where Batman beat up a criminal and left them either crippled or incapable of eating solid food not in a fight, but in the process to gain information from them?

Off the top of my head, in one of the films he dropped a gangster from a height specifically knowing that it would not kill him but break both legs and leave him in agonising pain, and would probably never walk normally again. Which is much closer to torture than a magic lassoo.

To be honest the lassoo is NOT torture as it causes no outward pain - any torment is your own guilt coming back to bite you, and as for making you tell the truth? If that's mind rape then tell the courts because I am pretty damn sure making you tell the truth is what taking the oath is designed to do. Not doing so is A) morally wrong and B) a crime. All the lassoo does is save time, frankly.

[Outside_85]

Could you show me an instance, where Batman beat up a criminal and left them either crippled or incapable of eating solid food not in a fight, but in the process to gain information from them?

Thing is that he doesn't actually need to under most circumstances.

That said Batman and Robin did recently have a rather silly story featuring a number of people Batman had left a permanent mark on.

[tangentman]

How can it free someone, if it is not willingly? And when you take the lasso away, the person is back to normal.

A central theme in the Wonder Woman universe is that people AREN'T free when they live bound by lies. That's why "Truth" has been prevalent in so many Wonder Woman stories. The person bound by the Lasso isn't mystically lobotomized; they retain their basic personality. Pre-Nu52, the Lasso burned away lies, but the core personality traits and soul remained the same.

Your arguments that the Lasso is torture and (the needlessly inflammatory) "mindrape" just seem circular and provocative for its own sake. If there's an argument of substance, I'm just not seeing it.

[Mark_S]

I think the main thrust of the arguement is that the lasso takes away free will and any reduction in free will by an outside source is considered by the op to be mind control/mind rape. Personally I think that goes too far, but lying is an extension of free will. You choose to lie and to have that choice taken away from you by the lasso does boil down to a question of do you have the right to lie as well as the choice to lie. I don't have a problem with the use of the lasso -however you term it- because I don't believe in lying.

[slvn]

A central theme in the Wonder Woman universe is that people AREN'T free when they live bound by lies. That's why "Truth" has been prevalent in so many Wonder Woman stories. The person bound by the Lasso isn't mystically lobotomized; they retain their basic personality. Pre-Nu52, the Lasso burned away lies, but the core personality traits and soul remained the same.

Your arguments that the Lasso is torture and (the needlessly inflammatory) "mindrape" just seem circular and provocative for its own sake. If there's an argument of substance, I'm just not seeing it.

While I don't agree that the use of the lasso should be called "mindrape" (because the word "rape" loses its meaning and impact when used as an umbrella to cover ALL kinds of coercion or violation) or torture (because causing pain is part of the definition of torture), I do think it 's coercion --it forces people to speak against their will. We don't allow law enforcement officials to coerce people into incriminating themselves -would we really allow private citizens to do so? Ive always been happy to overlook this in the comics, but Ihave to admit that I don 't think the lasso would or should be allowed in real life.

[Mark_S]

While I don't agree that the use of the lasso should be called "mindrape" (because the word "rape" loses its meaning and impact when used as an umbrella to cover ALL kinds of coercion or violation) or torture (because causing pain is part of the definition of torture), I do think it 's coercion --it forces people to speak against their will. We don't allow law enforcement officials to coerce people into incriminating themselves -would we really allow private citizens to do so? Ive always been happy to overlook this in the comics, but Ihave to admit that I don 't think the lasso would or should be allowed in real life.

I don't know, I think it'd be kinda nice to have some truth in this world.

[Rob_Olivera]

While I don't agree that the use of the lasso should be called "mindrape" (because the word "rape" loses its meaning and impact when used as an umbrella to cover ALL kinds of coercion or violation) or torture (because causing pain is part of the definition of torture), I do think it 's coercion --it forces people to speak against their will. We don't allow law enforcement officials to coerce people into incriminating themselves -would we really allow private citizens to do so? Ive always been happy to overlook this in the comics, but Ihave to admit that I don 't think the lasso would or should be allowed in real life.

Lassos don't kill people. People kill people! LOL.