the moral implications of the lasso

[Mark_S]

Often times in life truth is painful. There is just no way around that and forcing someone to face the truth by any means can be considered torture if you press the definition to it's extreme. But that is in my opinion not the case here. How far do you want to go to protect the criminal or the terrorist? How much restraint should you show when you're dealing with someone like the Joker? Just how much bubble wrap should there be between them and justice? For truth is, if nothing else, justice.
In the Picard example the lasso has no meaning since Picard if wrapped up with the lasso at that point would have spoken the truth the same as he was before.
Forcing someone to tell the truth is not what I consider a violation of anything but the lie itself. If you deal truthfully with the world then the lasso is powerless against you. If you have something you don't want to say and not saying it will hurt other people then you are violating their rights to remain un-hurt.
It's very easy to wrap yourself up in moral knots to the point where you can't do anything to anyone. But it's not very practical. In the events of Identity Crisis what Z and the others did to Light was flat out wrong, but what they did to Catwoman later on was absolutely criminal and it would have been nice to have seen that explored. But it wasn't and as the writer's skip over an ignore all of this there isn't much we can do.

[Rob_Olivera]

Wonder Woman just raped Green Lantern!

[carabas]

Wonder Woman just raped Green Lantern!

Looking at that, it just strikes me... Why is Jim Lee considered a competent artist again? That looks absolutely terrible.

[kane]

Wonder Woman just raped Green Lantern!

Neh, he just involuntarily mindraped himself.

[kane]

To wrap this up:

We basically have a disagreement if and under which circumstances mindrape/mindcontrol is allowed. As far as I understand you all consider mindrape/mindcontrol not as bad as physical torture. At least some of you seem to think that mindrape might be degrading etc., but you still think it is justified, as long as the goal is noble.

Here we have to disagree. I think that in a civilized society there are lines which should be not crossed and mindrape/mindcontrol is such a line. To me the lasso is a violation of mind, free will, the freedom of thought and at least comparable to real torture. Thoughts are no more free when WW is around.

It is a fictional universe, a fictional lasso and in the end only a fictional dilemma. I just would like to see it discussed in the comics.

[carabas]

To wrap this up:

We basically have a disagreement if and under which circumstances mindrape/mindcontrol is allowed.

I think we mostly have a disagreement that the lasso is mindrape. You throw that word around way too casually.

[Outside_85]

To wrap this up:

We basically have a disagreement if and under which circumstances mindrape/mindcontrol is allowed. As far as I understand you all consider mindrape/mindcontrol not as bad as physical torture. At least some of you seem to think that mindrape might be degrading etc., but you still think it is justified, as long as the goal is noble.

Here we have to disagree. I think that in a civilized society there are lines which should be not crossed and mindrape/mindcontrol is such a line. To me the lasso is a violation of mind, free will, the freedom of thought and at least comparable to real torture. Thoughts are no more free when WW is around.

It is a fictional universe, a fictional lasso and in the end only a fictional dilemma. I just would like to see it discussed in the comics.

People in the comics are more upset about Diana walking around with the sword, the Lasso is a non-factor.

[Mark_S]

To wrap this up:

We basically have a disagreement if and under which circumstances mindrape/mindcontrol is allowed. As far as I understand you all consider mindrape/mindcontrol not as bad as physical torture. At least some of you seem to think that mindrape might be degrading etc., but you still think it is justified, as long as the goal is noble.

Here we have to disagree. I think that in a civilized society there are lines which should be not crossed and mindrape/mindcontrol is such a line. To me the lasso is a violation of mind, free will, the freedom of thought and at least comparable to real torture. Thoughts are no more free when WW is around.

It is a fictional universe, a fictional lasso and in the end only a fictional dilemma. I just would like to see it discussed in the comics.

If you want to see this discussed in the comics themselves then you have come to the wrong place. This is a comic book discussion forum on the internet. In these halls of eternity you will find that the whispers of reason are constantly drowned out by the screams of outrage, anger and pain. Very few comic creators are brave or strong enough to endure the storms their stories produce and I doubt very much that any are influenced by what they read. If you want to see this discussed in the comics then write an actual letter. That may get some notice.

[hunter_peterson]

So... this thread is because kane wanted to say "mind rape", right? Because that's how it reads...

[kane]

I think we mostly have a disagreement that the lasso is mindrape. You throw that word around way too casually.

We can use the word mind control if you like, but mind control is mind rape for me.

[Javier Velasco]

But every argument you make can be made against any telepathic hero out there.
Or anytime that Batman beats someone to a pulp to get information out of them.

[carabas]

Got a question...
I know the lasso maks it so you can't knowingly tell falsehoods, but does it actually compell you to say anything at all? When Wonder Woman puts the lasso on you and asks you, I don't know, what Veronica Cale s up to, can't you just say nothing?

[Outside_85]

As I understand it, it compels people to speak as well as making them speak the truth.
But in the early days it was just mental enslavement in the shape of a rope.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if the Lasso of today has some 'holes' in how it works, like if the asker formulates the question in such a way that the answer can be dodged.
If Hepheastus is to be believed (since he made it...or once did), it doesn't really do anything now and it's all just Diana being very intimidating when she wants to be, but blames the rope.

[Rob_Olivera]

As I understand it, it compels people to speak as well as making them speak the truth.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if the Lasso has some 'holes' in how it works, like if the asker formulates the question in such a way that the answer can be dodged.

There have been some fluctuations of the lasso's power along the way. Pre crisis it would actually make u speak the truth if asked and also obey commands when given with residual effects after removed ( forgetfulness).

Post Crisis ( such as Barbara Minerva's first encounter with it) it would just make u ramble the truth even if not asked, and it was an almost a soul~reaching ability, but the commands feature was missing.

In nu52 we don't truly know what it is yet as some question has been thrown over it in WW7 bit in Justice League it was implied that it works like post crisis where no questions need to be asked. See GL encounter with her lasso for reference.

[Mark_S]

We can use the word mind control if you like, but mind control is mind rape for me.

Rape is defined as a violation by force, control is compulsion by force. There is a slight difference there. If you are saying that Diana has no moral right to use the lasso to get the truth then you have a point, in a way no one has the right to make anyone do anything that they don't want to do. I don't have the right to steal from you, someone else doesn't have the right to stop me, you don't have the right to stop me because that would be violating my right to do what I want. That doesn't stop nearly anyone on the planet, the best humans have been able to do is put some hinderance on the force. In some cases legal, in some cases physical. But for the most part it is left up the person.

Diana is a person I'd trust with the lasso. Because there is a stark choice in the dcu; either you let Diana use the lasso when she feels the need or -to bring it to the extreme you are also arguing- everyone in the DCU winds up as slaves to Darksied or Luthor and Diana merely becomes the first woman in his harem.