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  1. #31
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kane View Post
    But this is not the point. The threat of torture is also forbidden, despite it having no side effects.

    I am quite sure that even if there were no side effects truth serum would be forbidden because it takes aways your dignity, your choice, your right to keep your private and your intimate thoughts to yourself.
    No, I think the point is very much that giving somebody very painful, life-threatening drugs is torture. These drugs don't even do what you say they do.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  2. #32
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman's lasso serves as a liberating therapy. It frees people from their delusions and lies, not only forcing them to tell the truth, but spiritually confront it as well. Wonder Woman saved the world by forcing Ares to face the outcome of his nuclear warfare plot and learned about Captain Nazi's abusive childhood. Therapy isn't always comfortable, but that hardly qualifies it as "torture". Especially since Wonder Woman has historically used "Magic Lasso Therapy" responsibly. She's frequently used it on herself to keep herself honest!
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

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  3. #33
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    There's a story idea I had once; a man pleads to have Diana lasso and question him; he's on Death Row for murdering children. His confession is that of innocence, but he's already been convicted not only by the courts, who consider Diana's lasso inadmissible, but by the media as well ...

  4. #34
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Wonder Woman's lasso serves as a liberating therapy. It frees people from their delusions and lies, not only forcing them to tell the truth, but spiritually confront it as well.
    If only the Republican party had one...
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  5. #35
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    According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the definition of torture requires "existence of a specific purpose [like obtaining information] plus intentional infliction of severe suffering or pain" (http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/do...isc/69mjxc.htm) . With the lasso, there is a specific purpose, but there is no "intentional infliction of sever suffering or pain," so it's not torture.

    As the ICRC also points out, though, humanitiarian law prohibits not only torture but also "other forms of ill treatment," which include "inhuman, cruel, humiliating, and degrading treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and physical or moral coercion." I suppose the lasso might count as "moral coercion." Defining "moral coercion" could get a little murky, though. Are we really not allowed to make people feel that they morally have to tell the truth? Surely, law enforcement and intelligence agencies have to be able to apply some kind of pressure to obtain information that they can use to defeat the enemy and save lives. If there are ways of doing it that are not painful or injurious to the person being interrogated, then should they really be prohibited?

    Legally, in the U.S. we do have the right not to incriminate ourselves, so cops shouldn't be running around administering truth serum, even if it's not painful or injurious in the least. But I can't say that I'm particularly offended by Wonder Woman--a private citizen and hero, not a tool of Big Brother--using the lasso on, say, a super-terrorist to obtain life-saving information.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-17-2012 at 05:32 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    No, I think the point is very much that giving somebody very painful, life-threatening drugs is torture. These drugs don't even do what you say they do.
    Then let us agree to disagree here and ignore the torture aspect. What still is left is inhuman or degrading treatment.
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Wonder Woman's lasso serves as a liberating therapy. It frees people from their delusions and lies, not only forcing them to tell the truth, but spiritually confront it as well. Wonder Woman saved the world by forcing Ares to face the outcome of his nuclear warfare plot and learned about Captain Nazi's abusive childhood. Therapy isn't always comfortable, but that hardly qualifies it as "torture". Especially since Wonder Woman has historically used "Magic Lasso Therapy" responsibly. She's frequently used it on herself to keep herself honest!
    How can it free someone, if it is not willingly? And when you take the lasso away, the person is back to normal.
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

    Master Yoda on clubbing: "Always two there are, no more, no less: a hot chick and her fat friend."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the definition of torture requires "existence of a specific purpose [like obtaining information] plus intentional infliction of severe suffering or pain" (http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/do...isc/69mjxc.htm) . With the lasso, there is a specific purpose, but there is no "intentional infliction of sever suffering or pain," so it's not torture.

    As the ICRC also points out, though, humanitiarian law prohibits not only torture but also "other forms of ill treatment," which include "inhuman, cruel, humiliating, and degrading treatment, outrages upon personal dignity and physical or moral coercion." I suppose the lasso might count as "moral coercion." Defining "moral coercion" could get a little murky, though. Are we really not allowed to make people feel that they morally have to tell the truth? Surely, law enforcement and intelligence agencies have to be able to apply some kind of pressure to obtain information that they can use to defeat the enemy and save lives. If there are ways of doing it that are not painful or injurious to the person being interrogated, then should they really be prohibited?

    Legally, in the U.S. we do have the right not to incriminate ourselves, so cops shouldn't be running around administering truth serum, even if it's not painful or injurious in the least. But I can't say that I'm particularly offended by Wonder Woman--a private citizen and hero, not a tool of Big Brother--using the lasso on, say, a super-terrorist to obtain life-saving information.
    Good post.

    You are asking: "Are we really not allowed to make people feel that they morally have to tell the truth".? Well, we are allowed to do this by telling them that they suck, that truth is a virtue etc., but not by taking their free will away and violating their minds. Even is you throw someone into prison, his thought are still free and no one can take this away from him. To quote Capt. Picard: ""there are four lights!" But the lasso takes even that away.

    You say that you are not offended by what she does, because she is a private citizen and a hero. But is she really a hero, if she ignores the basic human rights? Don`t you think that if the lasso existed in real life and you could simply buy it, most countries would forbid it`s use? Shouldn`t the USA adress this issue to WW?
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

    Master Yoda on clubbing: "Always two there are, no more, no less: a hot chick and her fat friend."

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Tullberg View Post
    There's a story idea I had once; a man pleads to have Diana lasso and question him; he's on Death Row for murdering children. His confession is that of innocence, but he's already been convicted not only by the courts, who consider Diana's lasso inadmissible, but by the media as well ...
    This would be an interessting story. The problem here would be probably that the lasso cannot be verified by scientific methods. So even if the man agrees to the use of the lasso, you would have to simply believe WW that the lasso works and that he is really telling the truth and I do not think that a court would go for that.
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

    Master Yoda on clubbing: "Always two there are, no more, no less: a hot chick and her fat friend."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kane View Post
    You say that you are not offended by what she does, because she is a private citizen and a hero. But is she really a hero, if she ignores the basic human rights? Don`t you think that if the lasso existed in real life and you could simply buy it, most countries would forbid it`s use? Shouldn`t the USA adress this issue to WW?
    She doesnt ignore human rights, she just believes people have more right to remain unharmed and alive than a tormentor has rights to keeping her from saving them.

    The US has waterboarding and Guantanamo. So if they complain to WW about the lasso...well that would be hilarious.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    She doesnt ignore human rights, she just believes people have more right to remain unharmed and alive than a tormentor has rights to keeping her from saving them.

    The US has waterboarding and Guantanamo. So if they complain to WW about the lasso...well that would be hilarious.
    So she is a "the end justifies the means" type? I do not know if Guantamo and Waterboarding exist in the DCNU, but would she be perfectly fine with it? And let us say she would meet someone, who cannot be influenced by the lasso. Would she physically torture him? Because if you believe that "people have more right to remain unharmed and alive than a tormentor has rights to keeping her from saving them" then every method to obtain information, no matter what kind of method, should be allowed.

    So the questions are:
    1. Is every method to obtain information okay with her?
    2. If not: Where does she draw the line? Physical torture is not okay but the violation of the mind, of free will and thought and privacy is okay? Why? Because there are no visible side effects on the body? But the human mind is a fragile thing. There could be psychological side effects - someone could feel being emotionalyl violated and have emotional scars, which for some could be worse than physical side effects.

    It would be interesting to see this questions adressed in the comics. Maybe in a JLA issue, because the other heroes work with her and apparently have no problems with her use of the lasso.
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

    Master Yoda on clubbing: "Always two there are, no more, no less: a hot chick and her fat friend."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kane View Post
    So she is a "the end justifies the means" type? I do not know if Guantamo and Waterboarding exist in the DCNU, but would she be perfectly fine with it? And let us say she would meet someone, who cannot be influenced by the lasso. Would she physically torture him? Because if you believe that "people have more right to remain unharmed and alive than a tormentor has rights to keeping her from saving them" then every method to obtain information, no matter what kind of method, should be allowed.
    Thats the principle the concept of superheroes are built on, they do things normal law enforcement either cant or wont do. Not to mention vigilantism is illegal just about everywhere.

    So the questions are:
    1. Is every method to obtain information okay with her?
    2. If not: Where does she draw the line? Physical torture is not okay but the violation of the mind, of free will and thought and privacy is okay? Why? Because there are no visible side effects on the body? But the human mind is a fragile thing. There could be psychological side effects - someone could feel being emotionalyl violated and have emotional scars, which for some could be worse than physical side effects.
    1. No, every method is not ok for her, because she normally has the means to get the information she wants without any trouble.
    2. Because the Lasso of Truth has never broken anything other than wills and any psycological trauma that may be inflicted is because of the past the ensnared person is already carrying around.

    It would be interesting to see this questions adressed in the comics. Maybe in a JLA issue, because the other heroes work with her and apparently have no problems with her use of the lasso.
    Because they are left with much cruder and damaging methods...

  13. #43
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    Youy have read the wonder woman comics are there any side effect? the people feel bad about being caught but she rarely uses her lasso. Also the person would have to testify in court how the lasso har,m him. Also wonder woman can't only go for what she need thee bad guy to do. That is the crime who did. If she go beyond that are lasso breaks. Also what about all the good things the lasso can do. For one it can heal the a person mind. It can restore memory. It can protect you from magic attacks, It can get rid of illusions and rid of mind control. It shows the truth. If it was torture than the the bad would have to testify. The lasso can break if wonder wonman doesn't see the truth of herself or abuse the lasso and reveal other things that what enough thing to do with the crime.

  14. #44
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kane View Post
    Then let us agree to disagree here and ignore the torture aspect. What still is left is inhuman or degrading treatment.
    Well, I very much disagree that the lasso is degrading or inhuman. I just don't see it.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  15. #45
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    Here the hstory of the Lasso

    he original, Pre-Crisis lasso was formed from Aphrodite's girdle and forced whomever was bound within it to obey the commands of whomever held the other end. This effect could be used on larger groups of people, although this reduced its efficiency. In addition to being unbreakable, the lasso was also infinitely elastic. Eventually, Diana coated it in special Amazon chemicals that allowed it to transform her civilian clothes into Wonder Woman's garb. Diana demonstrated a remarkable level of skill with the lasso, performing such feats as twirling it to create air currents (upon which she could float) and spinning it to emit certain frequencies that disrupted Felix Faust's spells.

    Post-Crisis, the Lasso of Truth is the primary weapon employed by Wonder Woman. The Lasso was forged by the god, Hephaestus from the Golden Girdle of Gaea that was once worn by Antiope, sister of the future Queen Hippolyta. The lasso is completely unbreakable, immutable, and indestructible. The Lasso also appears to be able to alter in length, based on it's wielder's needs. It is able to restore people's lost memories, hypnotize people, get rid of illusions, and people who are in its circumference will be protected from magical attacks. Empowered by the Fires of Hestia, the Lasso forces anyone held by it to tell and understand the absolute truth. Recently, the Lasso has been shown to actually transport Diana's mind into that of whomever is tied within it. Its effects can be very dangerous, as not everyone is capable of facing the truth of their actions stripped bare of excuses. The Amazon Artemis, inexperienced with the use of the lasso, inadvertently drove a man to suicide after tying him in it, and the Lasso reduced both Captain Nazi and Ares, God of War, to tearful surrender by revealing to them the truth of their violent actions.

    With Wonder Woman's strength and speed, the lasso can be used as an offensive and defensive weapon.

    When the villain Genocide gained control of it and had the lasso implanted into her body, she used the lasso's powers to directly attack her victim's souls, and was able to bring even powerful and strong willed opponents like Green Lantern John Stewart low with ease using it, demonstrating it's frightening potential as a weapon in the wrong hands.

    As show in the wrong hands it can be torture.

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